Mushoku Tensei ~Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu~ - Vol. 12 Ch. 58 - Unspeakable Strength
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@Gemker
Slavery is bad. Calling a story bad for having slavery in the plot, however, is ridiculous.
Generalizing all forms of slavery under colonial European/American slavery is an insult to all enslaved people, including the people who are enslaved right now. Equating slavery in Ancient Rome to child laborers in many countries today shows a severe lack of understanding of the topic.
Calling for the immediate abolishment of slavery whenever a story has it is also equally ridiculous. Do you know what happened after Lincoln got assassinated? Living conditions for former slaves didn't actually change, since barely any of the programs to support them were passed (thanks a lot, Andrew Johnson). Also, stupid isekai japanese novel worlds are powered by slavery. That's the main workforce, and believe it or not, you need a workforce to maintain a country. Who would've thought.
Slavery is bad. Calling a story bad for having slavery in the plot, however, is ridiculous.
Generalizing all forms of slavery under colonial European/American slavery is an insult to all enslaved people, including the people who are enslaved right now. Equating slavery in Ancient Rome to child laborers in many countries today shows a severe lack of understanding of the topic.
Calling for the immediate abolishment of slavery whenever a story has it is also equally ridiculous. Do you know what happened after Lincoln got assassinated? Living conditions for former slaves didn't actually change, since barely any of the programs to support them were passed (thanks a lot, Andrew Johnson). Also, stupid isekai japanese novel worlds are powered by slavery. That's the main workforce, and believe it or not, you need a workforce to maintain a country. Who would've thought.
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@mahtan
Yeah no.
> Go do your own research because I'm not going to go look for it just to present to you.
Give me 1 single source that said slavery was ever good as you presented. You've studied wrong.
> Slavery has existed since the start of society and only stopped when it's use became unsustainable
It was, is and always will be unsustainable, that's one of the reasons why it's bad.
> Now just a reminder, since it seems you don't actually knows anything other than what is told to you
Can you frakking not?
> blacks where not the only nor the first slaves
Uhm why pivot to people's color? I've never mention slave's color, I ain't even American. FYI Sumer was the earliest civ, they used slave and they were black 🙃
Also stop defending slavery whether it's debtor prison or "slave can't feed themselves". We know these so called "reasons". We even listed them in here: https://fee.org/articles/ten-reasons-not-to-abolish-slavery/
> there were laws and regulations that defined what the slaves could be made to do, what could be done to them and how long the slave would stray in that condition
Who made these laws? Slaver. Who enforced these laws? Slaver. Who stood to benefit from not enforcing these laws? Slaver. What could slave do when slaver break these laws? 😑
> there was no way to secure large production of materials without slave labor as any other method would be both too costly, meaning the price of the products, including food, would be too high and that would cause inflation and famine, and not efficient enough, making the production not be enough and cause the price to be too high causing famine again.
Bullshit. Sound like you need to study more about Russian serfdom comrade. Your whole argument stink of landowner's propaganda. Why would the slave make more than to feed themselves?
> Basically nothing is good nor bad, the situation and time period that defines it as necessary or undesirable.
Genocide is sometimes necessary, depended on context? Rape? That's strawmen but you got my point.
Yeah no.
> Go do your own research because I'm not going to go look for it just to present to you.
Give me 1 single source that said slavery was ever good as you presented. You've studied wrong.
> Slavery has existed since the start of society and only stopped when it's use became unsustainable
It was, is and always will be unsustainable, that's one of the reasons why it's bad.
> Now just a reminder, since it seems you don't actually knows anything other than what is told to you
Can you frakking not?
> blacks where not the only nor the first slaves
Uhm why pivot to people's color? I've never mention slave's color, I ain't even American. FYI Sumer was the earliest civ, they used slave and they were black 🙃
Also stop defending slavery whether it's debtor prison or "slave can't feed themselves". We know these so called "reasons". We even listed them in here: https://fee.org/articles/ten-reasons-not-to-abolish-slavery/
> there were laws and regulations that defined what the slaves could be made to do, what could be done to them and how long the slave would stray in that condition
Who made these laws? Slaver. Who enforced these laws? Slaver. Who stood to benefit from not enforcing these laws? Slaver. What could slave do when slaver break these laws? 😑
> there was no way to secure large production of materials without slave labor as any other method would be both too costly, meaning the price of the products, including food, would be too high and that would cause inflation and famine, and not efficient enough, making the production not be enough and cause the price to be too high causing famine again.
Bullshit. Sound like you need to study more about Russian serfdom comrade. Your whole argument stink of landowner's propaganda. Why would the slave make more than to feed themselves?
> Basically nothing is good nor bad, the situation and time period that defines it as necessary or undesirable.
Genocide is sometimes necessary, depended on context? Rape? That's strawmen but you got my point.
chattel slavery only ended because abolitionists organized against it. Regardless of the context under which you find yourself, you always have the ability to condone or reject systems of power and oppression. Disappointing but unsurprising that Rudy chose to not only be complacent but actually support and perpetuate that system, and for what. The payoff is that Rudy considers literally murdering a powerless child slave and forces her to make a decision he himself never had to make? This logic is rather warped, 0/10 for ahistoric isekai slavery bullshit
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@Arceni
But Rudy's seen slavery before, and seen how it can work without much harm depending on the person, such as in Sartorius' household.
I gotta say tho, I'm loving all the salt here.
Looking forward to seeing everyone complaining about it still reading next month.
Make sure to buy the series when it's available in your region!
But Rudy's seen slavery before, and seen how it can work without much harm depending on the person, such as in Sartorius' household.
I gotta say tho, I'm loving all the salt here.
Looking forward to seeing everyone complaining about it still reading next month.
Make sure to buy the series when it's available in your region!
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@kcSaya
> Slavery is bad.
tell it to this guy @mahtan
> Calling for the immediate abolishment of slavery whenever a story has it is also equally ridiculous.
Yeah but MC literally bought a slave from a slaver. How's the hell is that ok?
> Do you know what happened after Lincoln got assassinated? Living conditions for former slaves didn't actually change, since barely any of the programs to support them were passed (thanks a lot, Andrew Johnson).
Yeah but no new slave brah,that's a win in my book, baby steps.
> Also, stupid isekai japanese novel worlds are powered by slavery.
That's what ppl are complaining about! It's called criticizing lazy writing.
> That's the main workforce,
The manga/LN/WN never said this.
> Slavery is bad.
tell it to this guy @mahtan
> Calling for the immediate abolishment of slavery whenever a story has it is also equally ridiculous.
Yeah but MC literally bought a slave from a slaver. How's the hell is that ok?
> Do you know what happened after Lincoln got assassinated? Living conditions for former slaves didn't actually change, since barely any of the programs to support them were passed (thanks a lot, Andrew Johnson).
Yeah but no new slave brah,that's a win in my book, baby steps.
> Also, stupid isekai japanese novel worlds are powered by slavery.
That's what ppl are complaining about! It's called criticizing lazy writing.
> That's the main workforce,
The manga/LN/WN never said this.
@kcSaya
I agree with most of what you're saying. I've read plenty of isekai trash by this point to more or less be able to gloss over things like slavery when they come up. I still roll my eyes, but I don't get fixated on that one part. Stories, even the ones that feature slavery, should be judged in their entirety and not just on one aspect.
Slavery requires context to fully understand, especially in all it's forms from chattel slavery to child labor to sex trafficking. However, how much does context really matter when it comes to comparing two forms of evil/misdeeds? I wager not much - one bad thing might be worse than another, but at the end of the day, they're both still bad things.
And to be fair, I've also read plenty of isekai manga that either don't feature slavery as a plot device, or condemn it outright. I understand that slavery is 'useful', but a good writer could also come up with some other mechanic that fulfills the same purpose as slavery in these stories.
What's a bit worrisome to me is how frequent slavery tropes show up in Japanese manga and LNs, especially the "good slaveowner" trope. I get that Japan doesn't have the same history or experience with slavery as Americans/Europeans do, but it still just sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm personally just not a fan of relativism, although I know many people probably disagree with me.
Oh well, I'm just a fucking weeb, so what do I know?
I agree with most of what you're saying. I've read plenty of isekai trash by this point to more or less be able to gloss over things like slavery when they come up. I still roll my eyes, but I don't get fixated on that one part. Stories, even the ones that feature slavery, should be judged in their entirety and not just on one aspect.
Slavery requires context to fully understand, especially in all it's forms from chattel slavery to child labor to sex trafficking. However, how much does context really matter when it comes to comparing two forms of evil/misdeeds? I wager not much - one bad thing might be worse than another, but at the end of the day, they're both still bad things.
And to be fair, I've also read plenty of isekai manga that either don't feature slavery as a plot device, or condemn it outright. I understand that slavery is 'useful', but a good writer could also come up with some other mechanic that fulfills the same purpose as slavery in these stories.
What's a bit worrisome to me is how frequent slavery tropes show up in Japanese manga and LNs, especially the "good slaveowner" trope. I get that Japan doesn't have the same history or experience with slavery as Americans/Europeans do, but it still just sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm personally just not a fan of relativism, although I know many people probably disagree with me.
Oh well, I'm just a fucking weeb, so what do I know?
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You know, stories about midieval era still need foundation. And the only reference we have - our world midieval era. And when slavery formation was destroyed by feodalism it didn't happen like "PUFF no more slavery" process of destruction of slavery was pretty long and not uniform.
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This is the first time I see the comment section actually debating about slavery, it become a common trope in isekai I just goes "Hah this bullshit again"
I personally see slavery (and good slave owner mc) become a common trope in isekai because it symbolise freedom and prosperity of the slave from the previous slave's condition which is basically a living hell.
This become used commonly in the modern era manga because their view of history, in which the USA invade the Japan and helps their nation prosper after they left is romantized
As the new generation grows, the people that lived through the world war 2 become even less and there the Japanese government try to wash the history and therefore the education system where the new generation live in and essentially making the USA more like a savior that help Japan prosper, which is mirrored in the slave trope where the MC is the USA
See also kancole that basically wash their world war 2 naval history into a childish loli battle
This explanation is a bit dumb, but it is a plausible explanation that the trope become so common in Japan even though almost every part of the world condemn it
I personally see slavery (and good slave owner mc) become a common trope in isekai because it symbolise freedom and prosperity of the slave from the previous slave's condition which is basically a living hell.
This become used commonly in the modern era manga because their view of history, in which the USA invade the Japan and helps their nation prosper after they left is romantized
As the new generation grows, the people that lived through the world war 2 become even less and there the Japanese government try to wash the history and therefore the education system where the new generation live in and essentially making the USA more like a savior that help Japan prosper, which is mirrored in the slave trope where the MC is the USA
See also kancole that basically wash their world war 2 naval history into a childish loli battle
This explanation is a bit dumb, but it is a plausible explanation that the trope become so common in Japan even though almost every part of the world condemn it
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