Rework how the new comments system is to be implemented

[shinya78]

I swear, this time, this is my personal suggestion based on my original stance in the matter. It's rather detailed, almost to the point of a revamp, but hey, it's my two-cents.

Home page, Chapter Lists (Outside the reader):

• Revert the comment-container button back to its original function of redirecting to the forums.
• Counter should reflect combined comments and posts, otherwise, just the forum posts.

Inside the reader:

• Make the new chapter comments system exclusive to the reader, accessible via a small icon at a corner when the menu bar is hidden, or with the [Comments] button in the menu bar.
• Rebrand the [Comments] button to [Forum Discussions]
• The [Comments] button should function as it does now, taking over the old system's function.
• The [Comments] button's counter should only reflect the number of comments in the new system.
• Rename "Read # older comments." to [Forum Discussions] or any other acceptable wording, then make it a button and move it to the menu bar below or above the [Comments] button.
• The [Forum Discussions] button's counter should only reflect the number of posts in the forum thread.
• The [Forum Discussions] button should allow the creation of new forum threads if it is yet to be made.

I believe this configuration should satisfy the dissatisfied "mob", and lets the users have both cakes and eat them.

edit:
changed wording on the title (Reconsider -> Rework)

 

[Sparrowhawk]

It's perfectly fine lol, I've written longer posts here in the forums.

Still, you shouldn’t have had to. People have largely hated the change and the devs have dug in their heels like they’re Blizzard announcing their shitty new phone game. People were even getting insulted by staff in a previous thread, making us out to be idiots for not liking the change then locking the thread. Like, Jesus Christ on a crystal cross, what do we have to do? Put it on a billboard? It’s frustrating and stupid. I understand how to use it now but it’s annoying af. I know nothing will change no matter what anyone says, so I’m basically getting this shit off my tits. Everything is being enshittified these days.

 

[Trevoga]

aight can someone hit me up when there's a working solution to make the comment button redirect here like it used to? clearly the devs don't give a fuck about us pennyless plebs having to click the button to open the new shitty premium comments and hope there's gonna be a working button redirecting to the poor forums, so I guess it's time for stylus or greasemonkey solutions

 

[HaikenEdge]

why the fuck does a pirate website with already existing deep discussions on basically any manga chapter needs more engagement?

Cuz corporate said so.

Obvi.

 

[cybeast21]

It's one thing if someone like me (a free user) voices dislike about the scroll/social media/whatever it called comment system, but when the supporter also voices dislike and it results in nothing?

Like, I really don't get what's the point of the social media style commentary at all, it provides no advantage compared to the forum system.

User who want to engage will engage anyway, and those who are silent reader, will still be silent reader, regardless of forum/social media style comment.

 

[shinya78]

aight can someone hit me up when there's a working solution to make the comment button redirect here like it used to? clearly the devs don't give a fuck about us pennyless plebs having to click the button to open the new shitty premium comments and hope there's gonna be a working button redirecting to the poor forums, so I guess it's time for stylus or greasemonkey solutions

See that new button with the overlapping text-bubble icon? That's the forum redirect button now, sure it takes 1 more click to get there, but it's there.

 

[Trevoga]

See that new button with the overlapping text-bubble icon? That's the forum redirect button now, sure it takes 1 more click to get there, but it's there.

yes, this is exactly what new features should do - add extra clicks and waste the user's time with zero benefit
I'm starting to think you don't actually mean anything with your suggestions or anything else you say and just like posting

 

[shinya78]

yes, this is exactly what new features should do - add extra clicks and waste the user's time with zero benefit
I'm starting to think you don't actually mean anything with your suggestions or anything else you say and just like posting

Brother, you have more posts than I do. What exactly did you think THIS SEPARATE SUGGESTION that I opened way earlier is for?

 

[Trevoga]

What exactly did you think THIS SEPARATE SUGGESTION that I opened way earlier is for?

evidently it is for you to later tell me something I already know like that button's existence solves anything

 

[shinya78]

evidently it is for you to later tell me something I already know like that button's existence solves anything

Take a breath, slow down, and listen. I'm throwing every suggestion that I could think of to land at a favorable compromise, that of which has a higher chance of satisfying both parties no matter how slim the odds. It's not like I'm completely on-board with this move either, I want it to be THE BUTTON just as much as you do.

If their decision bothered you that much and want them to just revert the whole thing back to what it was, then instead of just complaining about it, why not open your own suggestion thread and see how that goes?

 

[havelmom]

I don't know if things are being phased in
but clicking on the comments from the title page just opens the chapter, not the comments (not even the new comment section)

rollback is always an option

 

[Trevoga]

instead of just complaining about it, why not open your own suggestion thread and see how that goes?

how's that working out for you, big man?

 

[shinya78]

how's that working out for you, big man?

instead of asking me that, when are you going to open your own suggestion thread, little man?

 

[Lunkli]

I'd like to start with our motivation. Basically, we want to put the engagement adjacent to the content, just like every other platform does. Right now, even though it has been the case for years, it's not so straightforward to comment. You need to be redirected to another site (forums), and log in again if you haven't already (and if it's your first time on the forums, agree to the specific forum rules).

I think that this is the point that most people are taking issue with. You say that commenting is confusing, but the majority of users do not share this sentiment. None of us have ever seen any complaints about the forums being confusing. Maybe you have, by virtue of being the moderators of the site, but have you considered the possibility that that might just be a minority that you are overly exposed to due to your position?

From an actual user's perspective, it is "straightforward to comment." Even beyond that, many users like the current system. Rather than just being not confusing, the forums are actually less confusing, as a whole, than what you are trying to replace them with. So, ultimately, rather than solving a problem, to a lot of users, myself included, it feels more like you are creating a problem.

Sure, maybe "every other platform" uses a directly integrated comment system, but the idea that something being popular makes it true is a logical fallacy. Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, &c. all using integrated comments does not mean that they are the superior form of online discussion.

And I understand that a lot of people aren't giving very good arguments for why they think that the new system is bad, and that there's a lot of misinformation going around with people not realizing that the supporters-only period is temporary. But that doesn't mean that their conclusions are incorrect. Actually, the idea that they are is another logical fallacy.

All that is to say, I really think that you need to take your community more seriously.

If you claim that you're doing this for us, you should listen when we say that we don't like it. Really, it doesn't matter why else you're doing this. If you're making this change because you think it'll be better for the users, then you should listen when the users tell you that it is worse for them. The rest of your reasoning does not matter if the very basis of it is flawed.

If you have a trail of reasoning like "John is homeless" -> "I should build him a house" -> "Bricks are sturdy" -> "Therefore, I'll build a house out of bricks," but it turns out that John isn't homeless, then it doesn't matter if bricks are sturdy; you have no reason to build that house! If John tells you that he doesn't need a house, saying "bricks are sturdy" is not an argument against that. Similarly "two systems cannot coexist with the same weight" is not an argument against "forums are not confusing."

And if you're not doing this for the users, and you have some other reason to be making this change, then just say so, because right now you are wasting the good will of your community. I've seen translators include in their credits pages calls to action against you, telling their readers not to give any sort of financial support, specifically because of this change and how you are handling it.

So to sum this all up: Take your community seriously. Don't treat us like children that don't know what we want or what we're talking about when we say that we don't like the change that you've explicitly stated you've made for us.

 

[HaikenEdge]

And if you're not doing this for the users, and you have some other reason to be making this change, then just say so, because right now you are wasting the good will of your community. I've seen translators include in their credits pages calls to action against you, telling their readers not to give any sort of financial support, specifically because of this change and how you are handling it.

I can't wait until they make the new system open to everybody, people still not use it over the forums, and then they have to justify why they're keeping it over the forums. I wonder what logical hoops they'll jump through when that happens.

Because we all know this is happening. Because "engagement" is a metric corps can sell to advertisers. Why do you think "non-intrusive" ads happened before integrated comments even though users asked for integrated comments and not ads?

This ain't for us; MD already sold us out. This is to their corporate overlords, who are trying to squeeze as much money out of this operation as possible before it gets shut down for being a fucking criminal conspiracy to commit piracy and all the contracts are rendered unenforceable because you can't legally enforce a contract on something illegal.

 

[JVick]

Because we all know this is happening. Because "engagement" is a metric corps can sell to advertisers

If this was the case, wouldn't it be more profitable to keep the forum ? The way the new comments are implemented right now doesn't output another visit on any page & the click doesn't translate to any event where an advertisement is being displayed. You could maybe sell it as 'more time per exposed page' but that's a bit weak.

 

[BestBoy]

the majority of users do not share this sentiment

The majority of users have not shared a sentiment, because 92% of uses do not post in the forums. Which seems like a major motivation for the new comments. To make it so that 92% begin making comments.

 

[BobBiscuit]

If this was the case, wouldn't it be more profitable to keep the forum ? The way the new comments are implemented right now doesn't output another visit on any page & the click doesn't translate to any event where an advertisement is being displayed. You could maybe sell it as 'more time per exposed page' but that's a bit weak.

With the new system, since the comments and such are in the sidebar (which is always loaded/reloaded on each individual manga page), and each manga page is considered its own separate webpage in browsing history, cookies, and other metrics they'd be able to show to advertisers, putting ads into the new system would likely be the more profitable option, regardless. Additionally, I'm guessing that with the new system, they can shove ads in whenever the suits give the command, and that with said system being developed by them, they won't have to deal with XenForo to get it done -whether that be convincing XenForo to let them enable ads in the first place, work with them to develop the code for said ads as well as bug testing and fixing, or deal with any additional fees or profit-sharing, licensing contract renegotiations, and so on.

 

[Giguv]

The majority of users have not shared a sentiment, because 92% of uses do not post in the forums. Which seems like a major motivation for the new comments. To make it so that 92% begin making comments.

I feel like that is a pretty sensible ratio of people just reading to people actively commenting, is it not? Seems more or less in-line with how the views-to-comments ratio usually plays out on other platforms, including the platforms which use integrated comments style similar to what has been introduced.

 

[shinya78]

I feel like that is a pretty sensible ratio of people just reading to people actively commenting, is it not? Seems more or less in-line with how the views-to-comments ratio usually plays out on other platforms, including the platforms which use integrated comments style similar to what has been introduced.

Like I mentioned earlier, people that would comment, will comment regardless of method. The massive majority are here to read, and only read. Let's take a certain video from a certain platform as an example, to be specific their most viewed video that has comments enabled. It's currently sitting at over 9 billion views, surely a piece of media of that magnitude also has an incredible amount of people having discussions about it, right? Prepare for some quick maths.

That video, as of the moment of writing this, has 4,366,980 comments and 9,020,639,315 views. Looks impressive at a glance, doesn't it?

But that's 1 comment per 2066 views (rounded up), that amounts to a staggering 0.05%!

 

[Lunkli]

The majority of users have not shared a sentiment, because 92% of uses do not post in the forums. Which seems like a major motivation for the new comments. To make it so that 92% begin making comments.

Your argument is based on the premise that 100% of readers want to comment, but like others have said, most don't have any interest in commenting at all. Changing the system is not going to make the majority of these people start actively participating in discussion on a regular basis, regardless of whether it becomes easier to use or not.

And even if the forums were "too confusing," anyone who actually wanted to comment would figure it out eventually, because there's literally zero chance that they're so confusing that someone would give up. So once they had figured it out, we would see them complaining. (The way people complain about Reddit comments, for example.) But those complaints do not exist to any notable extent.

So you shouldn't conflate "doesn't use the forums" with "thinks the forums are too confusing to use."