Saikyou no Maou ni Kitaerareta Yuusha Isekai Kikanshatachi no Gakuen de Musou Suru - Ch. 21

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He doesn't have a Root. When they're summoned by the goddesses, they get a Root. He was summoned by a Demon King, so he didn't. That's already suspicious. He's not a Hero summon, he's just some guy.

"Bad Lady: Huh, so wait. the cat's not your cheat ability?
Little god idiot: YEAH IT'S A TALKING CAT
Bad Lady: Talking ca-, familiars are supposed to help you, not sit around looking pretty. Something's off here. Snap dispel YOU'RE THAT DEMON KING LADY. EVERYONE, KILL THEM!"
You need to go back and re-read chapters 2 and 3. All things have a [Root], it contains the meaning of their of existence. (Ch2, p9) What Kyouya is lacking is the [Savior Crest] which is supposed to be awarded when the summoned individual defeats the demon lord, Kyouya was not awarded a [Savior Crest] either because his conquest was not acknowledged (either time, he's defeated two of them now!) or because he and Felice had to use the remnants from his summoning to return to his world instead of being returned by a goddess.
There is no proof that Felice was ever the demon lord beyond what she and Kyouya tell them, Kyouya destroyed her [Root], or at least the artificial parts that made her into the demon lord, this destruction forced her very existence to change; that cat is now her natural form and the human body is the transformation, they could dispel her back into being a cat but using dispel on her as a cat would do nothing. This is all in chapter 3, right on page 27. Chapter 3 also tells us that Kyouya was summoned into that destroyed world by a goddess, because he and Felice had to use the remnants from him being summoned by the goddess to return to his world, unless they used the remnants of a random previous summoning without the faintest idea if it would connect to the correct world. (Ch3, p32)

I'd post images of the pages and dialogue instead of citing, but every image I try to link gives "Image cannot be loaded from the passed link" and images I try to upload are not appearing.
 
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You need to go back and re-read chapters 2 and 3. All things have a [Root], it contains the meaning of their of existence. (Ch2, p9) What Kyouya is lacking is the [Savior Crest] which is supposed to be awarded when the summoned individual defeats the demon lord, Kyouya was not awarded a [Savior Crest] either because his conquest was not acknowledged
Well you were right about everyone having that "root" thing. But he's only ever beaten a single Demon King as a "Hero summon". And we both know why he didn't get credit for that. That said, I used "root" as a proxy word for their cheat powers. Since we've been told that that's where their powers reside, and it's what the other kid ate to get said powers. My bad. Also, the cat form is her being too weak to stay as anthropomorphic.
Chapter 3 also tells us that Kyouya was summoned into that destroyed world by a goddess, because he and Felice had to use the remnants from him being summoned by the goddess to return to his world, unless they used the remnants of a random previous summoning without the faintest idea if it would connect to the correct world. (Ch3, p32)
That's exactly what happened. She summoned him, not a goddess (Ch. 2, p. 27, p.36). It was an asspull. Not to mention the one to greet him was Felice herself. Or what, do you think the guy got summoned, no powers, no explanation, directly in front of the most powerful thing in a last-ditch effort surprise her to death? The only reason he was recognized as a "hero" and a "Failed hero", at that, is because they caught him warping back like that. He really was just some dude. It's why, canonically, it took him 10,000 years to even begin to use magic, despite all those xp boosting items and potions he got.
I'd post images of the pages and dialogue instead of citing, but every image I try to link gives "Image cannot be loaded from the passed link" and images I try to upload are not appearing.
Catbox.moe hasn't given me any troubles so far.
 
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30.000 years... mc that's beyond pathetic...
XEwKrXF.png
or maybe your just weak dude blue balled himself for 30k years that takes some restraint its easy to give into lust
 
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Well you were right about everyone having that "root" thing. But he's only ever beaten a single Demon King as a "Hero summon". And we both know why he didn't get credit for that. That said, I used "root" as a proxy word for their cheat powers. Since we've been told that that's where their powers reside, and it's what the other kid ate to get said powers. My bad. Also, the cat form is her being too weak to stay as anthropomorphic.
That she needs more power to take on a human form means that the human form is not her regular form, ie, unless she herself transforms, she will remain in that cat form. And in Ch1 they give tacit acknowledgement that not everyone that gets summoned receives skills, and that not everyone that received skills received skills that would be apparent or useful. Heck, we don't even know for sure Kyouya doesn't have some skill that just hasn't been clearly spelled out to us yet. The only difference between Kyouya and them is that Kyouya was summoned into a world that was already destroyed with only the demon lord left.
That's exactly what happened. She summoned him, not a goddess (Ch. 2, p. 27, p.36). It was an asspull. Not to mention the one to greet him was Felice herself. Or what, do you think the guy got summoned, no powers, no explanation, directly in front of the most powerful thing in a last-ditch effort surprise her to death? The only reason he was recognized as a "hero" and a "Failed hero", at that, is because they caught him warping back like that. He really was just some dude. It's why, canonically, it took him 10,000 years to even begin to use magic, despite all those xp boosting items and potions he got.
You realize that other heroes would have been summoned the same way, no? (Just normally by someone other than the demon lord)
Let's say that someone processing the summons recognizes that it would drop him right in front of the demon lord, what can they do but put him there as requested? They put him anywhere else in that world and he's definitely going to die, there's nothing to eat anywhere in that world and no one to tell him where to go or what to do, unless he is obediently placed in front of the demon lord. They could simply not fulfil the summoning, but that doesn't mean she won't just keep recasting it whenever she has the power to do so until the summoning succeeds. If we were to go by the personality that's currently showing through from the gods, it doesn't seem beyond them to be dumping summoned heroes right in front of the demon lord on the regular just for the heck of it.
 
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And killed by whom exactly? I mean that cat was supposed to be so freaking powerful that destroyed a crazy amout of worlds and the gods and the like didnt have a way to deal with her nor could send heroes there cause no chance they could win so they just sealed those world away, but he was trained by that OP girl and was able to beat her so he is for sure stronger than that, so yeah there should be not a single soul in that academy that could stand a chance not even ganging up on him so yeah just some lame excuse...
She killed a lots of gods and ended up imprisoned... Now they are in a place full of heros and gods, even if they cant kill them they can still send them to another jail for a long time. Their aim is to try and live a peacefull life, they cant just kill everyone if they want to.
 
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That she needs more power to take on a human form means that the human form is not her regular form, ie, unless she herself transforms, she will remain in that cat form.
You're focusing way too much on a throwaway scenario here. The point is that once she's singled out as something other than just a cat, their simple life together is over, and she'll get found out.
And in Ch1 they give tacit acknowledgement that not everyone that gets summoned receives skills, and that not everyone that received skills received skills that would be apparent or useful.
No they don't. What are you on about?
Heck, we don't even know for sure Kyouya doesn't have some skill that just hasn't been clearly spelled out to us yet.
We specifically know he doesn't, and any change would be a retcon at this point. He's some guy who got summoned by a Demon King. The perks he got were all the buff potions and stuff she fed him over the years. But there's no cheat power he just magically got granted.
You realize that other heroes would have been summoned the same way, no? (Just normally by someone other than the demon lord)
Right, and as is typical of the genre, you're given an audience with the gods themselves, your situation is explained, and you get your power by said god. This is a deviation from that.
Let's say that someone processing the summons recognizes that it would drop him right in front of the demon lord, what can they do but put him there as requested?
"Someone processing the summons"? You say that like Felice wasn't the one to do it. It's not a "request".
T
If we were to go by the personality that's currently showing through from the gods, it doesn't seem beyond them to be dumping summoned heroes right in front of the demon lord on the regular just for the heck of it.
They're not the ones who did that. What are you on about, bro?
 
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You're focusing way too much on a throwaway scenario here. The point is that once she's singled out as something other than just a cat, their simple life together is over, and she'll get found out.

No they don't. What are you on about?

We specifically know he doesn't, and any change would be a retcon at this point. He's some guy who got summoned by a Demon King. The perks he got were all the buff potions and stuff she fed him over the years. But there's no cheat power he just magically got granted.

Right, and as is typical of the genre, you're given an audience with the gods themselves, your situation is explained, and you get your power by said god. This is a deviation from that.

"Someone processing the summons"? You say that like Felice wasn't the one to do it. It's not a "request".
T

They're not the ones who did that. What are you on about, bro?
If you want to say that he doesn't have cheat powers, why could he use the sword that even Felice had problems with? By all accounts that sword should have devoured Kyouya's soul when he used it against Felice, but not only was he fine but he had no issues calling upon the sword again to have it devour the trillions of lives the one guy had. At no point did anyone thoroughly analyze him to determine he had no skills; all we've seen as of yet to determine what kind of skills anyone has had is when they activate some active special ability, if they've got a skill like [Herculean Strength] or [Indomitable Will] that is just passively active then we're not going to see it as anything other than their normal self or the result of rigorous training.
If you want to bring in that it took him 10000 years to learn magic, how many other heroes have we seen use magic that isn't part of their gift or skill?
You want to say that he would have met with the gods/goddesses during the summoning process if he was summoned through them, give me proof that anyone else met a god or goddess while being summoned.


I'm basing my statements on nothing more than the information that has been provided, but I'm seeing a lot of mere conjecture in yours.
 
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If you want to say that he doesn't have cheat powers, why could he use the sword that even Felice had problems with?
Because the canonical series of events is that she's literally trained him for 30,000 years with every last trick, potion, item, and treasure, to be strong enough to beat her. He could use it because he's literally more powerful than her. And by a fair bit, since he wasn't mangled half to death at the end of their fight. If he had a cheat power stopping his soul from getting sucked out or whatever, the sword wouldn't even phase him from the start.

The closest we have to suggesting he might have them is Chapter 9, Page 20. But that suggests everyone has them, and the Goddesses just ease up on whatever was shackling them in the first place, kind of like MC did for Felicia. If the author wants to make the two the same, MC might hypothetically be able to give anyone the powers.
If you want to bring in that it took him 10000 years to learn magic, how many other heroes have we seen use magic that isn't part of their gift or skill?
I don't remember seeing any. I remember everyone using their one ability, and all their variations.

You want to say that he would have met with the gods/goddesses during the summoning process if he was summoned through them, give me proof that anyone else met a god or goddess while being summoned.
There's nothing to prove. It's a standard trope in all of this. Or what, do you think everyone else trained for 10,000 years, then made up their own special brand of BS magic?
I'm basing my statements on nothing more than the information that has been provided, but I'm seeing a lot of mere conjecture in yours.
Me: The Demon Lord was the one to summon him. He didn't get any cheats.
You: He might have cheats. Nobody checked him. And I know Felice said she summoned him, but I think a Goddess summoned him all willy nilly, then a second one, who oversees summons, threw him directly in front of the most terrifying thing ever in a dead world, without any warning, preparation, or help.

If you think I'm making more assumptions here, I really don't can't come up with a response that wouldn't get me banned off the old 4chan
 
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Because the canonical series of events is that she's literally trained him for 30,000 years with every last trick, potion, item, and treasure, to be strong enough to beat her. He could use it because he's literally more powerful than her. And by a fair bit, since he wasn't mangled half to death at the end of their fight. If he had a cheat power stopping his soul from getting sucked out or whatever, the sword wouldn't even phase him from the start.

The closest we have to suggesting he might have them is Chapter 9, Page 20. But that suggests everyone has them, and the Goddesses just ease up on whatever was shackling them in the first place, kind of like MC did for Felicia. If the author wants to make the two the same, MC might hypothetically be able to give anyone the powers.

I don't remember seeing any. I remember everyone using their one ability, and all their variations.


There's nothing to prove. It's a standard trope in all of this. Or what, do you think everyone else trained for 10,000 years, then made up their own special brand of BS magic?

Me: The Demon Lord was the one to summon him. He didn't get any cheats.
You: He might have cheats. Nobody checked him. And I know Felice said she summoned him, but I think a Goddess summoned him all willy nilly, then a second one, who oversees summons, threw him directly in front of the most terrifying thing ever in a dead world, without any warning, preparation, or help.

If you think I'm making more assumptions here, I really don't can't come up with a response that wouldn't get me banned off the old 4chan
Let's not forget that you are the one that brought whether or not he had skills into this by asserting that he definitely did not. I'm saying he might because we don't know. You are also the one that brought up that he took 10000 years to learn magic as if that was some kind of proof he didn't have a cheat skill. I'm pointing out that it doesn't serve as proof either way because not everyone with cheat skills has been able to use magic. The only one making conjectures there is you. The fact of the matter is that we cannot be certain how much of his strength comes from his training and how much might come from a cheat skill that he may or may not even know he has.

Meeting the god/goddess is a trope, but it is far from universal, there are just as many if not more where the MC is just suddenly plopped into the new world with no idea what's going on. Your conjecture is that he didn't receive any cheats or a [Savior Crest] because he was summoned by a demon lord, my question is "Where is your proof?" because THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THIS ANYWHERE. In fact, there is evidence the goddesses were involved in his summoning because they used the remnants of the goddess's summoning to return to his world, which would have been a gamble unless it was the remnants from when Kyouya was summoned. We've actually seen that not everyone that gets summoned gets to meet the the gods/goddesses, if any of them do, in the previous arc, so him not meeting them while being summoned does not serve as proof they were not involved.


You're here grasping at straws and making conjectures to justify his fears of standing out, but nothing in the story so far nor in any similar series indicates there would actually be any danger beyond what Kyouya himself is asserting. No one has any way to prove that Felice was ever a demon lord, even if they could analyze her [Root], Kyouya destroyed her [Root] to free her from her fate as a demon lord. They could investigate Kyouya's [Root], but that would still show that he defeated the demon lord because he destroyed the demon lord [Root].
BTW, you can't say that it'd be a problem for them to know about Felice either, she was right there on his shoulder talking to him when he was approached about being a returner. For all they could care, she's his familiar or something similar.
 
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More like they want to know what main char's team really is after the last mission. Who cares about useless goddess like Lala.
How can you determine ANYTHING about them by putting them against teams that can snatch their flag away with their skill in a matter of seconds?
Doing it once would be reasonable to see how they will react to spatial interference doing it ,again over and over makes no sense if their aim was to learn about MC's team.
If you want to "test" them the natural choice would be many different opponents to test different possible powers/skills/talents they might have and ideally prolong the "battle" for as long as possible.

The only possible reason to put them against only teams that can just steal their flag is only in an attempt to embarrass them.
 
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Let's not forget that you are the one that brought whether or not he had skills into this by asserting that he definitely did not.
You: I'm basing my statements on nothing more than the information that has been provided, but I'm seeing a lot of mere conjecture in yours.

Also you: I'm saying he might because we don't know.

Me: He doesn't.
conjecture /kən-jĕk′chər/

noun​

  1. Opinion or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.
  2. An opinion or conclusion based on guesswork.
    "The commentators made various conjectures about the outcome of the next election."
  3. An opinion, or judgment, formed on defective or presumptive evidence; probable inference; surmise; guess; suspicion.

:questionblob:

You are also the one that brought up that he took 10000 years to learn magic as if that was some kind of proof he didn't have a cheat skill. I'm pointing out that it doesn't serve as proof either way because not everyone with cheat skills has been able to use magic.
Right. They can't use magic... except for the specific magic they got just for being lucky enough to get help from a goddess. Notice the difference: One of the two groups has to train for 10,000 years to attain basic competence. The other did not. The story paints this as an inherent part of having the goddesses relax your shackles. Like, even if they could, why would the guy that can teleport anywhere with a single thought bother using anything else? I sure wouldn't.

Meeting the god/goddess is a trope, but it is far from universal, there are just as many if not more where the MC is just suddenly plopped into the new world with no idea what's going on.
So you know it's a trope... but you want to argue with me about this anyway. Also, I'm having trouble remembering many reincarnation stories where the gods aren't involved when MC gets a cheat skill. Except for those ones where they're reincarnated into a game, but the setting of "That one game I played the shit out of" does the gods' job of filling MC in and giving them an edge: The knowledge of the future is the cheat skill there.
Your conjecture is that he didn't receive any cheats or a [Savior Crest] because he was summoned by a demon lord, my question is "Where is your proof?"
The fact that Felice literally said she summoned him, and explained that the goddesses are the ones to unlock their shackles. When they summon people, they unlock their shackles so they actually have a snowball's chance in hell of doing the job. The goddesses may or may not be good people, but I'll be damned if they didn't grasp how stupid it would be to send normal, unmodified people to fight supernatural, world-ending abominations.

I'm really not sure why you're trying to infer the existence of a cheat skill we've never heard about into the story, then turning around and accusing me of making guesses.
In fact, there is evidence the goddesses were involved in his summoning because they used the remnants of the goddess's summoning to return to his world, which would have been a gamble unless it was the remnants from when Kyouya was summoned.
No. The world was doomed. Meaning they'd already sent someone to fight her. And they failed. Thanks to you, I re-read the story, and it's pretty clear the gate could only have returned to his world. The people of Earth were made specifically to be strong, and the goddesses just unlock their power. It's why they don't just make the people in the other worlds OP instead of shuffling everyone around from world to world. Again: Chapter 9, Page 20.


We've actually seen that not everyone that gets summoned gets to meet the the gods/goddesses, if any of them do, in the previous arc, so him not meeting them while being summoned does not serve as proof they were not involved.
What chapter?
You're here grasping at straws and making conjectures to justify his fears of standing out, but nothing in the story so far nor in any similar series indicates there would actually be any danger beyond what Kyouya himself is asserting.
When the story explicitly brings up a concern, and I take them seriously, I'm "grasping at straws". When you insist he must have been summoned by a goddess despite the story literally telling us otherwise, it's anything but that. I'm not entertaining this argument. They find out he's strong, they'll find out she's Demon King.
 
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You: I'm basing my statements on nothing more than the information that has been provided, but I'm seeing a lot of mere conjecture in yours.

Also you: I'm saying he might because we don't know.

Me: He doesn't.


:questionblob:


Right. They can't use magic... except for the specific magic they got just for being lucky enough to get help from a goddess. Notice the difference: One of the two groups has to train for 10,000 years to attain basic competence. The other did not. The story paints this as an inherent part of having the goddesses relax your shackles. Like, even if they could, why would the guy that can teleport anywhere with a single thought bother using anything else? I sure wouldn't.


So you know it's a trope... but you want to argue with me about this anyway. Also, I'm having trouble remembering many reincarnation stories where the gods aren't involved when MC gets a cheat skill. Except for those ones where they're reincarnated into a game, but the setting of "That one game I played the shit out of" does the gods' job of filling MC in and giving them an edge: The knowledge of the future is the cheat skill there.

The fact that Felice literally said she summoned him, and explained that the goddesses are the ones to unlock their shackles. When they summon people, they unlock their shackles so they actually have a snowball's chance in hell of doing the job. The goddesses may or may not be good people, but I'll be damned if they didn't grasp how stupid it would be to send normal, unmodified people to fight supernatural, world-ending abominations.

I'm really not sure why you're trying to infer the existence of a cheat skill we've never heard about into the story, then turning around and accusing me of making guesses.

No. The world was doomed. Meaning they'd already sent someone to fight her. And they failed. Thanks to you, I re-read the story, and it's pretty clear the gate could only have returned to his world. The people of Earth were made specifically to be strong, and the goddesses just unlock their power. It's why they don't just make the people in the other worlds OP instead of shuffling everyone around from world to world. Again: Chapter 9, Page 20.



What chapter?

When the story explicitly brings up a concern, and I take them seriously, I'm "grasping at straws". When you insist he must have been summoned by a goddess despite the story literally telling us otherwise, it's anything but that. I'm not entertaining this argument. They find out he's strong, they'll find out she's Demon King.

Let's take a look at the definitions of "conjecture" there and compare what the two of us are doing.

conjecture /kən-jĕk′chər/

noun​

  1. Opinion or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.
  2. An opinion or conclusion based on guesswork.
    "The commentators made various conjectures about the outcome of the next election."
  3. An opinion, or judgment, formed on defective or presumptive evidence; probable inference; surmise; guess; suspicion.

What I'm doing is avoiding coming to a conclusion because we don't have enough evidence and questioning what appears to be nothing more than a delusion or paranoia of the main character, which definition does that fit? Oh, that's right, none of them. Then there's you, "Oh, we don't have any concrete evidence of this, but it fits with my own headcanon and appears to be true at a glance so it must be true." And would you look at that, it fits all 3 definitions you yourself provided. How nice of you to provide the proof yourself for all to see.

By the way, you asked which chapter gives us proof that not every summoned person meets the gods/goddesses? Chapter 18. Dude is shown to only live for praise, but his biggest boast is that the townspeople called him a hero, if he had met a goddess and been told there that he was to be a hero then he would have opened his backstory with that instead of him falling on his ass when he was summoned. You wanted to know of a series where the MC gets isekai'd without meeting the god(s)/goddess(es)? TenSura, The Seventh Prince, Eminence in Shadow, Mushoku Tensei, Wrong Way to Use Healing Magic, the list goes on, Zero no Tsukaima, Kumo desuga, Shield Hero, Reincarnated as a Sword. More than half of all isekai series do not involve the MC meeting any kind of deity until after they're already in the new world, if they ever meet one at all.
 
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What I'm doing is avoiding coming to a conclusion because we don't have enough evidence and questioning what appears to be nothing more than a delusion or paranoia of the main character, which definition does that fit? Oh, that's right, none of them.
All of them. You decided he had a cheat because he used a sword someone weaker than him couldn't use.
Then there's you, "Oh, we don't have any concrete evidence of this, but it fits with my own headcanon and appears to be true at a glance so it must be true."
I have no idea what you're talking about. I remember telling you that the Felice summoned the guy, that the others were specifically unshackled by goddesses, that the goddesses briefed them on their powers, among other things, and that MC doesn't have a cheat. One of those is an inference, and that's because it's a staple trope of the genre. The alternative is that they were dumped, entirely at random, without explanation, then independently discovered not only the use of magic, but their own specific brand of OP bullshit magic.
Chapter 18. Dude is shown to only live for praise, but his biggest boast is that the townspeople called him a hero, if he had met a goddess and been told there that he was to be a hero then he would have opened his backstory with that instead of him falling on his ass when he was summoned.
Why would he be more impressed by a debrief when the first thing he sees in his new adventure is an entire town of people chomping at the bit to worship the ground he walks on? The bit is never that the gods praise you for being the guy. They're the ones that tell you you have a job to do. Or do you think the first thing she did was tell him how absolutely awesome he was? The people are the ones that see the good in what you do.
You wanted to know of a series where the MC gets isekai'd without meeting the god(s)/goddess(es)?
Yes.
Yes he did. It's the exact reason he's OP in the first place. Though it wasn't the one to summon him, as far as I know. But this is an apples and oranges comparison.
The Seventh Prince
That's not Isekai.
Mushoku Tensei
I'd check, but any discussion surrounding that series spoils every last detail of every last character and event for literally no reason. Also, I said "Involved when MC gets a cheat skill". I'm perfectly familiar with "Oh, I guess I came back to life. Let me work hard to get stronger". I'm talking about "Ooh, I'm The Hero. And I have a special cheat skill!" You know. Like in this story.
Eminence in Shadow
Sure, no gods, but no cheat skill, or "Hero" setting. Dude wasn't even summoned. Apples and Oranges.
Wrong Way to Use Healing Magic
Oh right!
Zero no Tsukaima
The one with the bitch? Did the guy get a cheat skill? All I know about the series is he gets tortured regularly for no fucking reason.
 
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What I'm doing is avoiding coming to a conclusion because we don't have enough evidence and questioning what appears to be nothing more than a delusion or paranoia of the main character, which definition does that fit? Oh, that's right, none of them.
All of them. You decided he had a cheat because he used a sword someone weaker than him couldn't use.
I never said he HAS a cheat skill, I said he MIGHT, and only after you asserted that he did not. The conjecture there is yours, by all three definitions, because you are making an assertion of fact based on your own guess with no solid evidence of your claim. My "conjecture" is an open-ended refutation of your assertation, demanding that additional information be provided before a conclusion can be made, which does not fit any definition of "conjecture."
Then there's you, "Oh, we don't have any concrete evidence of this, but it fits with my own headcanon and appears to be true at a glance so it must be true."
I have no idea what you're talking about. I remember telling you that the Felice summoned the guy, that the others were specifically unshackled by goddesses, that the goddesses briefed them on their powers, among other things, and that MC doesn't have a cheat. One of those is an inference, and that's because it's a staple trope of the genre. The alternative is that they were dumped, entirely at random, without explanation, then independently discovered not only the use of magic, but their own specific brand of OP bullshit magic.
They cannot use any magic outside what their cheat grants? So, by extension, would Kyouya being able to use all kinds of magic prove he does have a cheat, since you initially placed an emphasis on the fact that the others could use magic at all as evidence of them having cheats?
Chapter 18. Dude is shown to only live for praise, but his biggest boast is that the townspeople called him a hero, if he had met a goddess and been told there that he was to be a hero then he would have opened his backstory with that instead of him falling on his ass when he was summoned.
Why would he be more impressed by a debrief when the first thing he sees in his new adventure is an entire town of people chomping at the bit to worship the ground he walks on? The bit is never that the gods praise you for being the guy. They're the ones that tell you you have a job to do. Or do you think the first thing she did was tell him how absolutely awesome he was? The people are the ones that see the good in what you do.
He views all the people in that world as NPCs, but the first one to call him a hero would have been the goddess. With as much as he loved being called the hero, at no point did he ever say that anyone but the villagers called him that, nor did he mention ever being told he was chosen. (as tends to be part of the trope you're clinging to)

Yes he did. It's the exact reason he's OP in the first place. Though it wasn't the one to summon him, as far as I know. But this is an apples and oranges comparison.
He actually did not. It almost sounds as you got as far as him hearing the voice and didn't read any further.
The Seventh Prince
That's not Isekai.
It is. Fantasy world A to fantasy world B is still isekai.
Mushoku Tensei
I'd check, but any discussion surrounding that series spoils every last detail of every last character and event for literally no reason. Also, I said "Involved when MC gets a cheat skill". I'm perfectly familiar with "Oh, I guess I came back to life. Let me work hard to get stronger". I'm talking about "Ooh, I'm The Hero. And I have a special cheat skill!" You know. Like in this story.
Still an isekai reincarnation series where the MC obtains cheat powers and does not meet any deity during the world transfer. And for that matter, neither did the other summoned characters.
Eminence in Shadow
Sure, no gods, but no cheat skill, or "Hero" setting. Dude wasn't even summoned. Apples and Oranges.
Dude is a de-facto hero with super-cheat strength and intuition, he just prefers to pretend to be a pretend villain.
Wrong Way to Use Healing Magic
Oh right!
So you'll admit this one fits, but are denying others fit on the basis that their MC isn't the hero. Incase you forgot, this MC isn't the hero either, nor was he summoned to be one.
Zero no Tsukaima
The one with the bitch? Did the guy get a cheat skill? All I know about the series is he gets tortured regularly for no fucking reason.
He gains the ability to adeptly use any "weapon" he touches.


If you really want to nit-pick about whether or not the MC is the hero, as you did with a few of my previous examples, you end up forcing the requirement that someone tells them that is their role and has the power to all but force them to fulfil it, which, would you look at that, ends up needing to be someone with stronger cheat powers or a deity. Otherwise, I'm fairly certain Isekai Walking, Instant Death Cheat, Aligned Seven, and Lv2 kara Cheat, among others, still qualify just by removing the "MC is proclaimed the hero" requirement.



All that out of the way, you STILL have not explained how Kyouya showing off his strength results in Felice being outed as a demon lord. They have no evidence to make that connection unless Kyouya or Felice provide that information themselves. From every shred of information we have, Kyouya showing off his strength shouldn't result in anything more than incredulous looks and jealous pressure. They have no way to connect Felice to any demon lord, they even already know that she exists and can talk from when they brought Kyouya in. The only information they don't have about the two that they could possible gather at this point is how strong Kyouya is, but they have no way to connect that to anything except the fact that he's a returner, especially if his summoning was not through the goddesses.
Because he's the strongest returner ever? They already sort the returners by strength, so there was already a "strongest returner ever" before him, he just happens to be stronger than them. Because he's that strong without a [Savior Crest]? That still doesn't connect him to anything, that just means he wasn't part of the group that defeated the demon king, or that he got returned for other reasons. He has no actual reason to be holding back that we've been told about beyond his own paranoia.
 
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I never said he HAS a cheat skill, I said he MIGHT, and only after you asserted that he did not. The conjecture there is yours, by all three definitions, because you are making an assertion of fact based on your own guess with no solid evidence of your claim.
Sure, let's break down and organize the logic presented in your dialogue:
A's Main Points:
  1. No Root or Cheat Power: A argues that Kyouya doesn't have a Root (or cheat power), because he was summoned by a Demon King instead of a goddess.
  2. Different Summon Conditions: Unlike heroes who receive powers upon being summoned, Kyouya's abilities were developed over time with potions and training.
  3. Specific Sword Usage Explanation: A believes that Kyouya could handle the special sword due to his intense training and strength, not because of any inherent cheat power.
B's Counterpoints:
  1. Potential Undiscovered Skills: B suggests that just because Kyouya doesn't display obvious cheat skills doesn't mean he doesn't have any. He might possess passive skills that aren't visible.
  2. Questioning Skill Analysis: B questions the assumption that absence of visible skills means absence of any skills, especially when considering Kyouya's ability to wield a powerful sword that should have overwhelmed him.
  3. Open to Possibilities: B maintains that Kyouya might have skills that haven’t been explicitly revealed, criticizes A for making assumptions without definitive proof, and highlights that not all heroes use magic derived from their gifted skills.
Conclusion Discussion:
  • Both parties are engaging in a debate about the nature of Kyouya’s abilities and the source of his powers. A focuses on the training and tangible support Kyouya received, whereas B remains open to the possibility of inherent, undiscovered abilities that align with how other characters in the story have been developed.
This summary organizes each character's argument and their responses, clarifying the flow of their debate about Kyouya's abilities and the implications of how he was summoned.



You
Is there conjecture on either side?


ChatGPT
In the dialogue:
  • A's Argument: A asserts that Kyouya does not have any special or "cheat" skills, primarily based on the fact he was summoned by a Demon King rather than a goddess, and his long training period. A's conclusion that Kyouya has no cheat skills because he learned skills slowly could be seen as conjectural since it assumes that all who have cheat skills must manifest them quickly or in a recognizable form.
  • B's Argument: B speculates that Kyouya might still have hidden or passive skills that have not been explicitly identified, suggesting the possibility without concrete evidence. This too involves conjecture as B is proposing a hypothesis about Kyouya's abilities without direct proof, based on questioning the limits of visible assessment.
Both sides use conjecture to support their viewpoints, filling in gaps with assumptions where direct evidence from the story is lacking.



You
A relies on the fact that the story hasn't mentioned any "Cheat" skills for a full three volumes.


ChatGPT
A's reliance on the absence of any mention of "cheat" skills for three volumes to assert that Kyouya doesn't have them does indeed reduce the conjectural nature of his argument. It is based on the existing narrative content rather than purely speculative reasoning. This makes A's argument more grounded in the text as provided by the author, focusing on what has been explicitly presented or omitted in the story's development over a significant span.



You
So again: Is there conjecture on either side?


ChatGPT
Yes, there is conjecture on both sides:
  • A’s Argument: A concludes that Kyouya does not have cheat skills, relying heavily on the narrative's silence over three volumes regarding any such skills. While this reliance on textual evidence reduces conjectural elements, asserting definitively that Kyouya has no cheat skills based only on the absence of explicit mention still involves some degree of conjecture.
  • B’s Argument: B conjectures that Kyouya might have hidden or passive skills that haven't been explicitly detailed, despite the lack of textual evidence supporting this. This is a hypothetical stance based on the possibilities within the story's world rather than direct narrative evidence.
Both positions involve projecting interpretations or possibilities that aren't explicitly confirmed by the text, which is a form of conjecture.



You
Is either stance less supported than the other?


ChatGPT
In terms of textual support from the narrative provided over three volumes:
  • A’s Stance: A's stance is more supported by the current narrative evidence. A bases the argument on the absence of any mention of "cheat" skills associated with Kyouya over an extended period in the text, making it more grounded in the actual content of the story.
  • B’s Stance: B's stance is less supported by direct textual evidence since it involves hypothesizing about potential hidden skills without specific narrative backing. This stance relies more on what has not been explicitly ruled out by the text, which is inherently less supported by the actual written content.
Thus, A's position, relying on the absence of information, generally stands on firmer ground given the text's current scope, compared to B's more speculative approach.
They cannot use any magic outside what their cheat grants? So, by extension, would Kyouya being able to use all kinds of magic prove he does have a cheat, since you initially placed an emphasis on the fact that the others could use magic at all as evidence of them having cheats?
I know it's hard to keep up. Let's see if a machine can explain it better than me:

To clarify and organize the logic about the man's abilities compared to others with "Cheat skills," here’s a structured breakdown:

  1. Skill Acquisition Time: The man took 10,000 years to learn basic magic, indicating a natural, slow learning process.
  2. Skill Proficiency: Others with "Cheat skills" were able to use their skills immediately and proficiently, suggesting a supernatural enhancement or gift that the man lacks.
  3. Summoning Origins: The man was summoned by a Demon King, contrasting with others who were summoned by goddesses.
  4. Unshackling by Goddesses: Those with "Cheat skills" were specifically "unshackled" by the goddesses upon summoning, possibly indicating a release or enhancement of abilities that the man did not receive.
Getting these skills is painted as an inherent part of the unshackling process. MC did not get unshackled.

He views all the people in that world as NPCs, but the first one to call him a hero would have been the goddess. With as much as he loved being called the hero, at no point did he ever say that anyone but the villagers called him that, nor did he mention ever being told he was chosen. (as tends to be part of the trope you're clinging to)
He loves being admired. They could call him "Ballsack" for all he cares. The goddess might be the first one to call him a Hero, but the villagers were the first to shower him with love. Empathize a little. His story began the moment anyone was happy to see him.

It is. Fantasy world A to fantasy world B is still isekai.
Pretty sure he revived in his own world.
Still an isekai reincarnation series where the MC obtains cheat powers and does not meet any deity during the world transfer.
There are no cheat powers there. Everything you see is apparently perfectly normal stuff that anyone could have done (The fact that they don't is... hard to believe). The only "cheat" in the story is scientific knowledge. If anything, the summon seems to have been a hindrance to at least one other, since she doesn't actually have mana
Dude is a de-facto hero with super-cheat strength and intuition, he just prefers to pretend to be a pretend villain.
90% of the source material is him training to be stronger. The entire premise is the dude's a battle-crazed cringelord who finally got the chance to live out his battle-crazed cringelord Isekai life fantasy. He did start off with a good family, but that's where it ends for him. The rest is all blood, sweat, and psychotic laughs. The reason he's so OP is because he actually learned, in depth, how the magic in the world worked. Much like Mushoku, anyone could have done this. Except in this world, MC is actually talented.


But yeah, the anime really makes it seem like he just woke up OP, as if blessed by the gods. I get why they cut out all the training, but still...

So you'll admit this one fits, but are denying others fit on the basis that their MC isn't the hero. Incase you forgot, this MC isn't the hero either, nor was he summoned to be one.
No, it still fits. This is in the "Royal Family summoned them to be heroes" niche of the genre, but hey, I'd say it's substantially similar. MC just got caught up (Like others in this story did) in a Hero Summon. And they're all reasonably OP. It might be a selection thing, where the spell just finds the most OP people or whatever, or it might not. Same result, either way. MC happened to have a relatively rare, but otherwise normal power, and trained to be OP. But his friends were pretty much exceptional from the start.
He gains the ability to adeptly use any "weapon" he touches.
Huh. Still not watching, though.
 
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I really don't like this personality for an op character but it's the only one they ever seem to get because writers don't know how to write op without being boring so they make him pretend to be weak instead. Just don't have an op mc at that point, no real difference or point. This chapter is annoying enough I just might drop this here. He's such a pansy character.
 
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Seriously, why are you still going along with all this bullshit, MC? You could drop out of this shit academy, live the vagrant life with your cat anywhere you want, and nobody would be able to beat you. You're trying way too hard for a woman you won't even get physical with. =/
 
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Seriously, why are you still going along with all this bullshit, MC? You could drop out of this shit academy, live the vagrant life with your cat anywhere you want, and nobody would be able to beat you. You're trying way too hard for a woman you won't even get physical with. =/
Because the idea is to live a normal life, not take over the world.
 
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Because the idea is to live a normal life, not take over the world.
Hence why I said the vagrant life, moving from city to city. Not bothering with the small politics of countries, when he could threaten to destroy them if they don't leave him alone. Remember, if you want true freedom, you must have the power necessary to claim it. This means no one being able to oppose you.
 
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Hence why I said the vagrant life, moving from city to city. Not bothering with the small politics of countries, when he could threaten to destroy them if they don't leave him alone. Remember, if you want true freedom, you must have the power necessary to claim it. This means no one being able to oppose you.
He never said he wanted "True freedom". Everyone complaining about MC is just imposing their own megalomaniacal fantasies on to him, then bitching when his actions don't bring him closer to said fantasies. He wants to live in peace. He doesn't want to take over the world, or to wander, or to be the guy with the biggest dick around.
 

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