Sengoku Komachi Kuroutan: Noukou Giga - Vol. 5 Ch. 25 - Outcome

[Doopington]

The mysterious ikemen must have taken some of his historical knowledge from otome games and/or sengoku shonen series, because his half-clothes exposing his gloriously chiselled midriff is silly as hell.

 

[criver]

@NazrinMaus

You believe the Allies did any less atrocities during WW2? Go read more history. There are no "good" or "bad" countries - just political interests and power struggles. The civil war is pretty much irrelevant compared to what she's doing. She's basically giving some warlord tools to rule through force. The ideas, ethics, and morals at the time were so archaic and inhumane that she shouldn't have trusted anyone but herself with such dangerous knowledge. And considering that she didn't put herself in a position of power, she should have kept her mouth shut. But instead she's working for the benefit of a warlord.

 

[Renan_Walheim]

Shizuko: The harbinger of death.

 

[Nep]

@criver on the contrary, nobunaga WILL kill her if she gives bad advice.

She is not allowed to shut up since nobunaga actively looks for her.

So all she can do is speak.

If she doesn't give the tools, it would be her ally that suffers.
Also prolonging a war is bad for everyone in general.

You speak of the responsibility of action but conveniently ignore the consequences of inaction

 

[criver]

@Nep

on the contrary, nobunaga WILL kill her if she gives bad advice.

That's something you came up with, without any basis. If he believed her only knowledge was agriculture, he would have just used her for that purpose. It's her desire to exceed his expectations that led to her current position.

You speak of the responsibility of action but conveniently ignore the consequences of inaction

This is not about action or inaction - it's about giving tools to people they have not matured for, both morally and ethically. She could have stuck to medicine, agriculture, and economics and unified the country though peaceful means - instead she's feeding military information to a ruthless warlord.

 

[ikachan815]

That picture of Shizuko standing over the hill... So historical.

 

[IMACOP]

@criver "...and unified the country though peaceful means..." Sorry, but WTF.

 

[criver]

@IMACOP
Nobunaga's goal was to unify Japan - he just tried to achieve this through tyrannical means and brute force. It's a lot easier to unify a nation based on actual benefits (the populace at the time cared about their livelihood not about who's on top). Our MC certainly had the means to go the second route, instead she decided to support a warlord.

 

[Nep]

@criver

on the contrary, nobunaga WILL kill her if she gives bad advice.

That's something you came up with, without any basis.

If Shizuko gives bad advice, she is "working for the enemy". Means she is a major threat. So she has to die. That is if the Oda army doesn't get decimated to the point where she gets KIA.
Shizuko remaining silent is not an option since Nobunaga ACTIVELY looked for her in war matters ever since his son + the crossbow incident.
Shizuko doesn't make a crossbow, can't hunt, die of starvation. (She had to hunt while her first batch of veggies were still growing)
Shizuko gives good advice = gets flamed by you.

If he believed her only knowledge was agriculture, he would have just used her for that purpose. It's her desire to exceed his expectations that led to her current position.

Nobunaga found out about her knowledge with war because the idiot Shizuko pacified a random child by randomly quoting Sun Tzu. On top of that, it was a peaceful quote. "It i best to win without fighting" Unfortunately, random child #1 was Nobunaga's son and she is now targetted by the father. It has nothing to do with her trying to exceed his expectations.

This is not about action or inaction - it's about giving tools to people they have not matured for, both morally and ethically. She could have stuck to medicine, agriculture, and economics and unified the country though peaceful means - instead she's feeding military information to a ruthless warlord.

So very naive. Unify the country through peaceful means? You think the people waging war are going to stop fighting just because you got medicine and agriculture? No. They are just going to take your supplies and go kill others.

"But that way, you are not killing others. You are just providing food."

Hell no. Once you are providing food to one side, you are already committed, ESPECIALLY since she is an outsider. What even is the difference between providing food and information? On one end, the Oda gets more supplies to fight longer, assuring their victory. On the other, the battle ends faster, assuring their victory.

As a result of her providing information, both the Oda and their enemies have less overall casualties.

Her very existence itself is a problem to history, Oda's survival, etc. If you want things to end "properly" the only way would be for Shizuko to die.

 

[sinkingship]

@criver
Whaaat? When has any country in the history of the world ever been unified "peacefully" based solely on economic policy? Seriously, name one. That's just not how nations work.

But that isn't really important at because it's impossible to cleanly sperate "economics, agriculture, medicine" from "the military" - if because of her intervention Nobunaga's nation has more money, more food, and better medicine do you really think that doesn't directly translate into an increase in his nation's military power? Sure, she might be speeding the process up a tiny bit by giving him explicit information about the enemy generals and preaching about the importance of logistics but do you really think Oda Nobunaga couldn't come up with the ground-breaking idea of "feeding my troops with all this surplus grain" on his own?

The second she stuck her hand into national level policy that hand was instantly stained with blood, no matter how seemingly benign the technologies she introduces are. Do you think a country in the 1500s that has its farms outputting food at 3 or 4 times efficiency on the same amount of land as compared to it's neighbors isn't going to be expanding real fucking soon? In an era where the only real measures of a countries strength were the number of people and the amount of food? When you catapult a civilization forward like that, it doesn't matter who the ruler is, the only outcome is going to be war. Putting better weapons in tactics in their hands only makes the wars shorter and reduces the amount of suffering overall.

 

[IMACOP]

@criver Errr... okay... I must be living in a different world, then. Last I checked, that didn't, don't and won't even happen in my world.

 

[criver]

@Nep

Spoiler

If Shizuko gives bad advice, she is "working for the enemy".

She doesn't have to give bad advice - she can just pretend she has little to no knowledge on anything military related. Instead she kept feeding him more and more military info.

Nobunaga ACTIVELY looked for her in war matters ever since his son + the crossbow incident.

Newsflash - the crossbow was actually known before she came, so that was just a slip of the author.

because the idiot Shizuko pacified a random child by randomly quoting Sun Tzu. On top of that, it was a peaceful quote. "It i best to win without fighting"

While I do not deny that she is stupid, that quote is mostly harmless. Only through your leap of logic can it be related to her having extensive military knowledge - about production of saltpeter, logistics, military tactics and whatnot.

You think the people waging war are going to stop fighting just because you got medicine and agriculture?

War is waged if it is believed to be more profitable than peaceful economic relations. That's why you have things such as the European union - it's simply economically unviable for the countries in Europe to go to war with each other for example.

What even is the difference between providing food and information?

What even is the difference between a nuke and a better standard of living? There's obviously a big difference.

As a result of her providing information, both the Oda and their enemies have less overall casualties.

The question is - do you want Oda as a ruler? No - you do not. He is stupid, tyrannical, and has the moral compass of a war criminal from today's perspective. Shizuko is just stupid and short-sighted.

 

[Chizan]

@acher13 Surely you have seen those piston like things they use to blow up things in mines in movies or TV? That's the same thing.

 

[iber0]

I'm just glad that horrible mistake with the cotton was corrected.

 

[criver]

@IMACOP
Yes indeed - the European union and United States are founded on constant wars between the member countries/states. /s

@sinkingship

Spoiler

When has any country in the history of the world ever been unified "peacefully" based solely on economic policy?

The European union and United States are very much such economical and political unions. It is just unprofitable for members to wage wars with each other nowadays. This is also the reason why the economies are so strong.

But that isn't really important at because it's impossible to cleanly sperate "economics, agriculture, medicine" from "the military"

She could have divulged minimal information, localising the effects to a minimum. While agriculture, economics, and medicine affects the military - it can also affect the reasons for waging wars. You can just make it unprofitable to wage wars due to economic relations and interdependence - not unlike what you see between first world countries today.

do you really think Oda Nobunaga couldn't come up with the ground-breaking idea of "feeding my troops with all this surplus grain" on his own?

No I do not think so - in fact I criticised the stupid idea that only she could come up with this when it came up. The point is that she created this surplus for Nobunaga (he was amazed that she produced so much - she could easily have it toned down), and didn't try to spread her knowledge around instead. Additionally, there's still a large difference between giving out military ideas and agricultural ones. In one case the military effect is a byproduct and a lot lesser.

Do you think a country in the 1500s that has its farms outputting food at 3 or 4 times efficiency

Already addressed - but I will reiterate - she made sure that this is the case. She could have tried to spread the information everywhere, or better yet climbed to a position of power outside of Nobunaga's influence if her plan was just to mess around. Instead she's depicted as "not wanting to change anything", while doing almost everything to work against that.

Putting better weapons in tactics in their hands only makes the wars shorter and reduces the amount of suffering overall.

Untrue. Or do you need a reminder of the Vietnam war? Agent orange? Nukes over Japan?

 

[MoonlightFairy]

Pffttt.... Reading the comments and suddenly they're a history expert. Internet never ceases to amaze me.

Ups. Pardon my English. I'll grab the popcorn myself.

 

[Umesan]

Those time travellers in the end. Were they in chapters beforehand? or if they're related to Shizuko in a way.

 

[AEnigmatrix]

Huh, and I thought those two were also giving free techpoints to other clans they found themselves in – like Yoko making sweets for the Hongan-ji back in Nobunaga no Chef.

 

[Kefrayba]

Personally, I am almost always leery whenever I saw manga that try to change Japan war history. The atrocity committed by Japanese soldiers in WWII seems to be one of the thing that Japanese society as a whole still not willing to acknowledge. I don't know how much resources Japanese people can locally research. Since they don't teach this in Japan school, unlike the Germans.

 

[Morgan_spurlock]

@kefrayba i mean, this isn’t related to ww2 at all, I don’t really see how that’s relevant. And it’s not like Japanese people don’t have google if they want to go in depth writing about it. Sucks that it’s not taught much in schools though