Serious questions about this blow-up (the other thread is eploding too much to be useful)

[ninjadork]

Well, in the other thread @MellowV2 got around to responding to my specific question towards him. And a more dishonest piece of weasel-speaking sophistry I haven't seen outside the realm of politics.

So as of now I am convinced that whatever the actual issues here may or may not be, these scanlators have chosen to handle it in the worst way possible by throwing a screaming bitchfit. Which is unfortunate but not surprising.

@StumbleReel All these scanlators have withdrawn their work from mangadex. Some of them were highly popular series. If you struggle to understand why that's a problem, then I have to question why you're here.

 

[Kaarme]

@RonBWL

The entire drama thread lies on the fact that MD "plans to go legit and steal off scanlators' work to profit off it". This has been disproved, and basically any sane person would see it's just a pipe dream that can never come true

I can't speak for Holo, but I doubt the dream/plan was to steal scanlations. How could you even start a legit business with stolen merchandise? In practice the wannabe legit MD would have needed to discuss with every relevant Asian publisher separately (or some agency handling their foreign licenses), and separately look at the individual series as well. Then the legit MD would have needed to negotiate with the scanlators. Because while the original author/publisher owns all the rights to original (the "raw"), the scanlator does own the rights to the translation. It's only the translation, though, because the plot, the names, the characters, etc, are still owned by the original creator. The translation alone is kind of useless in a commercial sense, yet that doesn't mean anyone could simply take it and use it commercially for their own purposes. Naturally it's a different thing if a fan translator would ever seek to sue anyone for using their translation without a permission, after all, scanlators are pirates. However, one would need to consider Holo & Co utter scumbags if anyone thought they would simply steal the translations believing nobody would dare to do anything about it. It would be quite a ridiculous PR issue right off the bat.

 

[idle_af]

@Kaarme
How the fuck does Holo even deal with knowing that this shit is proliferating in various circlejerk groups. I swear these theories are getting even more retarded

also
@jonkie23
What's with the personal message feeling sorry for me? lmao

 

[hi2theworld]

Just as justanothermanganerd pointed out, it would be nice to be able to find where originated the series which were pulled/discontinued because of this decision, because tbh if I have to go through a crapton of different pages in order to find the source scanlation, I'll prefer to go to one of those nasty aggregators.
I mean, at least if the MD staff doesn't want to, it would be clever from the groups who are leaving to leave something like an empty chapter simply stating "We're leaving this website, you can keep reading our work here or there". I also feel it could kinda cool down the whole drama which honestly Idgaf about.

 

[kn1000a]

Hi, so I'm just making this post so I can put my opinion on some of the drama out there.
My qualifications are: being a (former) scanlator, being a reader, using Mangadex, and having an opinion.

First off, where do I stand in this drama?
I believe MD has done everything right so far and that these groups need to grow up.

What JB and the gangs done right is one thing: creating a distraction. This whole fake drama started out from a single snipe and escalated to this point.
Money IS definitely an issue. In my opinion, scanlating should be done mainly as a hobby and to introduce new manga to people. Sure, set up a Patreon all you want. But when you start putting shitty ads on your site, or putting delays on MD, 10+ days at that, I'm pretty sure it's no longer a hobby out of passion. They want the fame and recognition, and internet karma from being the people bringing these popular manga to us. It's all good until shit like this blows up.



For those who didn't know or follow this drama from day one:
It all started from a snipe of Anjou-san manga a few days ago. Hatigarm was the one scanlating that series, then another unknown group (Facepalm) stole the march and called out scanlation begging for money = scamming in their credit page of the chapter. Which is not all true, I will admit. What I do find distasteful is how Meraki and the gangs handled this drama. Meraki wanted to "defend their friend (Hatigarm) reputation" by commenting on the drama directly in the chapter's discussion. MD mods warned that since comments about the drama will sidetrack the actual chapter discussion, they will remove those drama comments if necessary. MD mods suggested either respond through a credit page of their own, or making a post on their own website. Sounds pretty reasonable to me; it's not like MD is siding with either side, they're just telling groups to handle this matter outside of MD's moderation areas. The sniping group was the smart one, unfortunately the "victims" aren't.

What followed is Meraki getting pissed about not being able to argue in the comment section (it sounds as childish as it is). Which Meraki then decided to leave MD. Then either Meraki or JB (all friends of Hatigarm apparently) told Hatigarm to remove their Anjou-san chapters. Things heat up, and discussion with the MD mods resulted in nowhere (otherwise we won't have this shit going on). JB and the gangs started to gather around an anti-MD brigade to find any excuses to make MD the devil and therefore making their leave a noble cause. Unfortunately, reality is much different than their fantasy and people saw through it instantly, lol.



Let's address the big issue: Money.
Not every scanlator is greedy, and the opposite is true as well. All scanlators have different motives, just like how an artist might enjoy drawing on Twitch for people to enjoy the process together, and another artist might only be doing paid commissions only. It is fine if donation is ONE of the reasons you do the hobby. However, there is a line to draw when money is the sole reason your group exists. When groups started using 10+ days delay, putting ads on all their sites, and even claiming they need $50 buck a week for a volume of manga (when in reality it is around 300 yen, or $3), it gets ridiculous. Sure as hell doesn't look like a non-profit group. Sounds to me like they want all the clicks and views on their site as much as possible. Wait, when has this become an issue about site stat and donation when the goal should've been for the readers?

Sniping
Kinda funny that all of this came from a single sniping drama. MD going legit and whatnot is just one of the excuses they want to use to distract readers; they themselves know that MD is not even close to going official like Fakku or CR, just as most of us do. It all came down from butthurting groups. One of the thing I like about MD is there are competition. Scanlation should always be for the community no matter what drives you. I used to be an ignorant reader as well, but I also picked up the task and decided to help out people to get their manga out faster. If someone snipe me (and have good quality), sure I will even let them take the project. I don't understand the mindset of monopolizing a series; isn't the end goal to let there be good releases for the readers to read? The fans would be happy, and so should be the scanlators since their series can be taken care off by another group with good standards.

Oh, you're telling me that's not the real end goal? You're saying it's for internet karma and clicks and money?? That can't be right, no one is shameless enough to do that...

There are a LOT of manga out there to scanlate, and of course everyone goes for the popular stuff. Getting raws before the official release, argue about snipes, throwing a fit when MD couldn't protect you from the snipers (who are technically also scanlators because y'know, they too scanlated), then claim MD is lying and not "for scanlators". Grow up and get a real job. You guys are the immature ones for not solving this matter privately or ignoring the trolls/snipes. It's the internet, if you get hurt over every bit of drama you will have a bad time and should just cancel that Comcast subscription. All of this drama are the same old shit recycled 10 times every few months. You want donations and fame? Be my guest, but when you start to cry about your monopolized manga, and start up drama out of nothing, you are looking for fingers pointing at you.

But what about my time, effort, and money to scanlate? How can I pay for stuff if I don't get my donation and ad revenues?!
Just like any hobbies, some requires more effort and money than another. If you cannot afford scanlating without begging or resorting to shady measures, then take this advice: Retire already. No one and nothing is forcing you to do scanlation. If you are no longer doing this out of a passion for the community, and would rather chase fame and power, then it's time to stop. Go get a real job irl and climb the ladder there. Stop scamming people out of their pockets. Grow up and stop throwing a fit whenever you pride and monopolies are hurt.

Good thing you decide to leave, our community doesn't need greedy bastards like you. We will donate and continue to support groups that support and work to better this community.

Edit: removed line breaks because they *still* break comments on the home page comment widget. Sorry!

 

[Bochulaz]

Well, maybe MD team will stop allowing translator delays. It would be nice.

 

[Holo]

@Kaarme

So you're basically saying it's never going to happen, right? Because I agree with you.

 

[Solistia]

@holo yeah good luck with the legit thing cause it's never going to happen 😊 unless you get like, Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos behind you or something...

 

[Esteria]

Bezos here, I'm gonna buy MD and add a new monthly option called Manga Strike. $10/m if you have prime, $15/m if you don't for all the manga you want. We'll pickup exactly 2 new series per 3 months. It's really a great offer for fans.

 

[Soveregin]

The real issue is whether or not there will still be hentai.

 

[Solistia]

Actually wait, I bet Elon Musk would invest...QUICK TO THE TESLA MOBILE

 

[Kaarme]

@Holo Never say never, but it certainly does sound like a challenging dream. My gut feeling as a long-time anime and manga consumer is that there are some differences between what CR pulled off with anime and what MD would need to face in the manga domain. MD currently has a huge library, but by going legit it would be reduced to cinders initially, unless miracles were achieved (expecting miracles isn't what business partners and bankers want to hear about). Could the legit MD then rise again? I'm not a businessman, so I have no idea how the economics could work. It would undoubtedly be full-time work to run the show, but would it produce enough profits to pay the wages, especially with the ad driven aggregators still as competitors?

Someone wiser than me would need to evaluate it.

 

[Le_Dook]

Gonna say the truth here, anyone saying that this is the 'end' of MangaDex are woefully over-reacting. To be frank, the groups that have left are a small fraction of this site, and the manga they scanlated here was a small amount (and personally, I don't feel that the majority of what they scanlated was particularly interesting) To conclude that MangaDex is 'dead', simply because it has lost several popular series is a ridiculous statement in itself, and exactly what these Groups are trying to make you believe. They're attempting to cause chaos in order to damage MangaDex, and to benefit their own sites. This site will be no different without them, and the tenacity of this community will prevail as it always does. Don't be fooled

 

[Pika]

So, from what I'm reading (glancing over) and from what I understand what Mangadex is, was it something like this:
MD: "Hey, free hosting + we'll make sure that the quality won't suck by making it jpeg x10 + if you want you can remove your uploaded stuffs! You can also promote yourself here with all these links! Now don't be evil to each other!"
Scanlators: "Sweet, I can upload stuff here"
Some scanlators: "Sweet, I can promote stuff here"
MD:Does nothing that has some direct negative influence to scanlators
Some scanlators: "Why are they getting so big and not me!? Me no like! I'm gone! FU"
MD: "Ok? That's our rules? If you want to go, you can go?"
Some scanlators: "ME GONE!" Starts thread

Something like that?

 

[Holo]

@Pika

Very succinctly and accurately summarised.

 

[sterven]

@war-ble
You do realize that there was a poll to see if people actually wanted merch a couple of months ago right? Can't really fault the site for providing a service people wanted, and the fact that it launched the same day (or close to) is just an unfortunate coincidence.

 

[icantnotthink]

I feel like if MD did go legit, it would basically require soemthing like....

1. MangaDex goes to assorted manga magazines, probably using a fake name as a start up rather than Mangadex so they don't let them find out that they are storing all their manga here.

2. MangaDex asks these magazines about scanlating(short term for the whole process in this instance) their manga for them and digitally hosting it. I'm assuming MangaDex would pay the publisher for online english publication rights at this point?

3. Assuming all goes well and.... 200 "popular series" worth of publishers think this would be good for them, the plans are made.

4. MangaDex hires some popular/good scanlation groups or individuals. I'd assume redrawers would less necessary (stuff like purely redrawing kanji on background, rather than making scanned stuff look nicer) because they would be getting pages from the source and not scanned from a book/magazine.

5. MangaDex then revamps itself probably as a subscription service. I'd assume somewhere in the ballpark of 7$-to-15$ a month.

Not a business/entrepreneur/economics major or anything so my general estimate of how this would work may be off. But it really seems like the hardest part would just be getting into contact with all of the publishers and hoping that they would be cool with liscensing out popular stuff

 

[goronyanpai]

You all *wheeze*
It's 6:30 am here and I still haven't finished working on my draft and the drama is still running even though the main thread has been locked. If only this happened in April fool.

Based on what kn said, I agree about the price of the magazine.
Magazines won't be that expensive. What is $50 for?
I've heard that Japanese readers can buy 1 volume with 3-4 pieces (1 to read, 1 to collect, 1 to display) <- this is real, recently I saw (on twitter ofc) a fan buying 1 volume just to collect greeting cards with different art.
Is that possible for that? Lol

 

[Plykiya]

@icantnotthink

All of the realistic paths to legalization involve downsizing the site to a small portion of content and getting a few select reliable groups who are interested. Essentially what Fakku did if you only look at what they licensed and how much content they currently have. It would be a crime to kill off this community just to pull off something as mediocre as Fakku though.

MangaDex provides more to the community than a tiny legalized service ever could. I'm perfectly happy scanlating my trap and loli shit in peace :x Just hope publishers let us continue that way

 

[sirot]

For the groups leaving MangaDex, lets say supposedly a mass exodus occurs... what's the better alternative option?

Aggregators are nice for discoverability due to their tagging, rating and other quality of life things. Individual websites don't have that. However, where exactly I read the manga, if it's on the MangaDex or group's site, does not matter to me. The release delay feature seemed like a nice compromise with the only deficiency being that a chapter wouldn't appear on your listing until its viewable on MangaDex itself.