The Politics Megathread

[Tamerlane]

Good, it's been almost a month and we're even more fractured.

Plus the mounting evidence that shows election tampering is starting to scare me about the future of the country

Hopefully arguing with strangers online will give the vague sense of catharsis and/or expose me to how some of the stuff may be wrong.

 

[Teddy]

@zephyrus

Why did this get unlocked?

Christmas miracle?
Massive changes in the politic climate?
Zeph finally gor replaced by a shapeshifter alien?

 

[Chrona]

@blackyawgdom

@comeonnow0 Thats called the Dolezal effect. Where a white person pretends they're actually black, without earning the respect of the African American Community. AKA Machine Gun Kelly, Bieber, or Kanye, as opposed to somebody who earned it, Eminem.

I may quite possibly be stupid, but I'm 99% sure that Kanye's situation has nothing to do with the "Dolezal effect". I believe the moniker individuals like Kanye receive from their contemporaries is being "an Uncle Tom", not the argument that Kanya literally isn't black and is just riding the culture.

@Richman

Now tell me, American: In capitalist America, is it true that "large" food servings are bigger than those served in most countries?

It's hard to compare 1 to 1, closest I can find is this infographic.

Please note though, it doesn't take into account that these monstrosities are quite common to fill at gas stations.

These gas station jugs typically carry around 52 Oz, that's almost twice the size of the American "large" and again, these used to be extremely common pre-corona.

 

[Greenfrost]

Why is this hellhole back?

 

[Richman]

@Chrona
Fascinating!

 

[Alraisen]

@Tamerlane Would like to know what's it like there, the zeitgeist? volkgeist? there with the current elections, what's the general response in the streets? How do you feel the majority would take it if Biden took the elections? And if Trump did? It's very hard to form an opinion here in Europe.

 

[Tamerlane]

@Alraisen Society is very fractured right now and the divide between the elite and the everyman is growing wider.

It's hard to tell because of the lockdown, but seeing the difference in atmosphere between when I was on campus and when I got back to my hometown is stunning. The constitution and amendments are being ignored by the governors of several states, including New York despite the Supreme Court ruling many of the aspects of the lockdown unconstitutional as it violates the right to peacefully assemble. Additionally, an increasing amount of Americans are saying that they don't trust the results of the election.

We're at the boiling I feel with the social tensions, and things are only going to get worse if the people are not going to be rightfully represented.

The unfortunate truth is that if Biden is left standing, half the country will feel he unjustly usurped the election and through his connections undermined American democracy. Alternatively, if Trump wins through the Supreme Court, with faithless electors, or through a contingent election, the other half of the country will feel as if he went around the democratic process. The end result either way will probably be more violence, which is not good.

Generally the tensions are much worse in larger cities, but it's hard to tell from Indiana, so I'm on standby. I can say with confidence that now with the Georgia CCTV footage and watching the Gettysburg and Arizona hearings where Rudy Guilani presents the eyewitness testimony and the expert testimony, that fraud most likely occurred, though it's hard to say how much is a standalone effect or how much is an organized effort. Whether or not Trump will win is debatable though because even though his team only had one case dropped and are now on their way to the supreme court, the issue of time is also a problem.

 

[BestBoy]

@Alraisen A small group loyal to Trump still believe there was vast election fraud. Most just laugh at them.

edit: @Zephyrus I would have waited till after January 20th to reopen this thread.

 

[Tamerlane]

@BestBoy

I would say that would be your own biases showing given several polls have said upwards of 70% Republicans (Rasmussen, Politico, etc.) believe that there was significant issues of voter fraud, with varying numbers for democrats and independents. The Rasmussen poll said that it was close to 30% of Democrats and 45% independents, but Politico said it was closer to 10%. May be sampling issues.

Full disclosure that these polls are a few weeks old, and so these numbers may have changed, especially as time as lead to more evidence coming to light that there was fraud. Additionally the Rasmussen poll said over 60% believed that Trump should concede, but I am unaware if that number has changed, and it was relatively small with a random sample of 1,000 Americans at the 95% confidence interveinal. But this should demonstrate that it's not just a "small group loyal to Trump." Even then, it doesn't disprove the claim, nor does it invalidate the argument as that's the genetic fallacy. (Hell, I didn't even support Trump or vote for him, it's just there's overwhelming evidence to support Trump in this instance.)

 

[kenx]

Speaking as someone disconnected from this issue due to not living in the US of A, besides the unavoidable rants on the internet.
Holy hell, most people I've found on the internet that talk about the american elections either try to be as objective and logical as possible (like that one guy from 12 Angry Men) or are convinced that they have the facts and anyone who doesn't at the very least agree with their opinion is contemptible.

Also, may I direct your attention at how the demonym for USA inhabitants is the name of the entire continent?

 

[Tamerlane]

@Kenx The country is named after the continent. It was a man named "Amerigo" who proved that Columbus weren't in the East Indes, whose Latin name was "America," so the continents were named after him. The USA named itself after declaring independence after its location.

Also Juror 8 is based.

 

[BestBoy]

@Tamerlane Note I didn't say "most republicans," but yes it's anecdotal that most U.S. citizens are literally laughing at them. I'm very confident that most citizens don't believe there is systemic election fraud, though. Regardless, I'd say those polls would be vastly different now compared to a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago, most of the republican party was agreed regarding election fraud. Now it's fractured. Not to mention polls these days are often wildly inaccurate. None of this seems very serious to me anymore. It looks like a grift by trump to drum up a bunch of money, as well. $200 million so far. Less than $10 million used.

 

[Tamerlane]

I'd say it's probably higher with all the public hearings which have some pretty damning evidence @Bestboy

Not to mention we now have video evidence of fraud from the State Farm Arena from CCTV footage that I linked earlier. Not to mention the President's own address recently and other factors.

I think the "trump is grifting" is a narrative that doesn't really have evidence, and I don't think there's much evidence to such that the Republicans are fractured right now, aside from the Rhinos which were always against Trump and pro-establishment like Romney.

 

[Chrona]

@BestBoy

A small group loyal to Trump still believe there was vast election fraud. Most just laugh at them.

That's a funny way to refer to 61% of Republicans and 29% of Democrats.
And if you don't like that source.
Only 58% of those polled believed Joe Biden legitimately won.

 

[BestBoy]

@Tamerlane The video has already been investigated and nothing fraudulent was found. Check the GA SoS. Also, the public hearings are basically just press conferences. If Rudy was confident those witnesses were strong evidence they'd be in court. They are under no obligation in the hearings to tell the truth and suffer no consequences for lying. We've already seen this with the blond who lied about deleting her social media. I'm not longer taking systemic election fraud claims seriously and I won't respond to them seriously from here on out.

@Chrona If you're going to quote a statistic at least do it correctly. It isn't 29% of democrats. It's 29% unaffiliated. 45% unaffiliated do not think the election is stolen. Did you think I wouldn't look at the link? Regardless, none of that refutes that it's a minority that believe the election is stolen. Again, I didn't say most republicans are laughing at them. I was referring to all citizens of the US. And since when is 58% not "most?"

 

[Chrona]

@BestBoy

Did you think I wouldn't look at the link?

I expected you to look at the link yes, why wouldn't I? Do you have to be a cunt about it?

Regardless, none of that refutes that it's a minority that believe the election is stolen

If you had reading comprehension, the part I took issue with was not "most of America is laughing", it was "a small group loyal to Trump'. If you're going to handwaive 61% of Republicans as "a small group", I suppose our definitions are so vastly different I can't meaningfully communicate with you. There are approximately 150~ million registered US voters, of those 150~ million, 34% are registered Republican, assuming 61% of those Republicans do not believe Joe Biden won legitimately, that's 30 million people in the US. 10%~ of the US population does not believe that the President Elect won legitimately. If 30 million people is a small number, I hate to think what your beliefs about the holocaust are.

 

[Tamerlane]

@BestBoy

A) If you've watched the hearings like I am, you would know that all these witnesses ARE in their court cases. These hearings are to get the information to the state legislatures who constitutionally have the authority to resend the certification because technically they're the ones who decide the electors. All the witnesses cited including the likes of Shiva Ayyadurai, Colonel Phil Waldron, and the thousands of signed affidavits he has all are involved in the court case, and have sworn under threat of perjury on the federal level that if they are lying they will be prosecuted. Not to mention the evidence the Voter Integrity Fund has found with thousands of people who did not request a mail-in ballot nor voting in their states having been recorded as voted as per state records.

B) Yeah, no the Georgia secretary of state is absolutely wrong here. It's demonstrated in the video itself. It lines up with the timeline of the "burst pipe" incident, the affidavits of those involved, and the sudden spike in Biden votes at approximately the same time. Not to mention all the media has been doing is outright denial and never explaining what's wrong with the evidence. Watch the video. It aligns with the evidence and just because Raffensperger claims that it doesn't show fraudulent evidence, it does not automatically debunk the evidence. Especially if it's contradictory to the video itself. His ethos is already in question because of previous impediments in trying to investigate the process, so I doubt him just offhandedly dismissing it without countering any specific claims is enough to suffice.

Also, deleting social media accounts is not an indication of being wrong or lying, especially given that there's plenty of evidence of political pressure and harassment during this election, including the GSA spokeswoman. It's also sneaking in the premise to assume she is lying without proving that she is wrong and proving malice.

The fact you're no longer taking the allegations of fraud seriously and are outright dismissing them on the face of it without listening to the case being presented indicates to me that it doesn't matter what evidence I present because you'll just dismiss it. I'd recommend getting informed and actually looking up the legal documents, affidavits, etc. instead of getting your information filtered by the media.

(On a side note I'd recommend also looking into the actual data from the Rasmussen because it's slightly different depending on how you count stats because it ranges from very unlikely, unlikely, likely, very likely, so you can include the "likely" as people who believe.)

 

[BestBoy]

@Chrona 61% several weeks ago while fraud claims were at their most popular in the republican narrative. It'd be lower now. In the context of the 150 mil registered voters, yes, it's a small number. It's an even smaller number in the context of U.S. citizens. Immediately satisfying godwin's law is pretty funny, though.

@Tamerlane Are these the same cases that are being thrown out for hearsay?

2) Apologies, I meant the GA voting systems implementation manager. Went over the SFA footage with official investigators today and found no fraud. The water pipe leak and the footage being presented did not happen on the same night.

3) I was referring to her stating in the hearing that she had to delete her social media, and an hour later she updated her (existing) facebook page with a photo of her and Rudy in the same building the hearing took place. The entire point is that she isn't a reliable witness if she's willing to lie about small things like that. There are other concerns regarding her work history (that she wasn't fired), but there's room for interpretation there so it's moot.

4) I gave the election fraud claims an entire month to prove their credibility and nothing panned out. Now they're trotting out recycled conspiracies with new coats of paint. There's nothing there for me to even look at. I do look at the documents. The problem is there's no substance to them (when I can read them, SIDNEY POWELL). My process includes following lawyers who provide their readings as well as the links to the full documents. I look at both.

outright dismissing them on the face of it without listening

The irony of it is that I've just decided to be the other side of the coin. You've been given explanations, but dismiss them on the face without listening.

 

[Tamerlane]

@BestBoy

1) No, the Trump campaign has three lawsuits in the works. What you're referring to is the other cases brought that would favor Trump. Even then, the rulings of the lower courts don't matter so much as the ones in the upper courts. One of the biggest cases is that technically mail-in voting shouldn't have been allowed in Pennsylvania without a vote that would have occurred during THIS election for the public. Which means all those votes technically shouldn't count.

2) The burst pipe happened at 6:07 AM on Nov 3 and repairs were completed at around 10 AM. Yet the State Farm Arena said it was closing its polling for the night at 10:30 p.m. Several local sites reported officials saying they would not continue counting over said burst pipe. This isn't helping your case, because the argument was that they used the "burst pipe" story as a cover. In fact it makes the whole situation even more suspect as Powell said in her filing, even if some of her other claims are questionable.

Here's a good article on it, even if it's a bit partisan
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/11/27/its-complicated-the-burst-pipe-in-fulton-county-ga/

3) That's a hasty generalization. The phrase "delete my social media" could refer to any number of sites, or temporarily deleting them. It was a minor point, but that does not invalidate the larger points she may have made. It's not good reasoning to dismiss all of her claims on the ground she may have misspoke on one point, let alone ALL OF THE AFFADAVITS because of one shaky irrelevant point about why more people haven't come out.

4) "Conspiracy theory" is a funny term, isn't it? It implies someone is unhinged, without any empirical evidence and lacks credibility. However, it's really just a use of diction to dismiss arguments or characterize them. For instance, you could argue a lot of things that ended up being true were just "conspiracy theories." U2, the pentagon papers, watergate, etc. It's not an argument, it's a dismissal. Everything I have seen indicates there's a smokescreen by a media full of gaslighting media and partisan hacks who do not care about the truth, and will say a claim is disprove without disproving it or demonstrating how its wrong. It's the strategy of repeating a lie until it appears true. It's poisoning the well to the greatest degree

The irony of it is that I've just decided to be the other side of the coin. You've been given explanations, but dismiss them on the face without listening.

Wrong. I've watched the mainstream news, and read the "debunk" articles and it's all just the tactic of gaslight and deny. I listen to the arguments, but they're not strong, and lack empirical evidence and more are just alternative explanations but ones that don't all fit together or follow any kind of consistency. I dismiss when there is no evidence to support, and there's more evidence to support

 

[Chrona]

@BestBoy
Pointing out Godwin's law doesn't dismiss the argument or even strengthen your position. As Godwin himself said it, "[it] should function less as a conversation ender and more as a conversation starter." I will admit though, I really should have quit when I realized you were speaking a different language. You seem highly defensive and deflective about the situation in contrast to posts you made earlier in this thread.