Tsuki ga Michibiku Isekai Douchuu - Vol. 4 Ch. 28
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All merchant matters got settled it seems....
And now the main premise of an isekai begins deling with the demons...
And now the main premise of an isekai begins deling with the demons...
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the true hero is in the wasteland, epic ?
I also liked that Rembrandt and Moris are trying to live honorably now
I also liked that Rembrandt and Moris are trying to live honorably now
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I wonder if the girls will tell Makoto about what happened with the land deal and how they decided to handle it, since it made him look naive to Rembrandt. Or for that matter if any of them might tell Rembrandt at some point that it was those two and how they had clearly noticed but let things play out to see how he'd react.
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@firosahoge
I'm sure that Hitler too, had he won the war, would have become an amicable, placid old man. This doesn't redeem him for what he did before though.
Come on, they don't even seem to have an ounce of remorse.
I'm sure that Hitler too, had he won the war, would have become an amicable, placid old man. This doesn't redeem him for what he did before though.
Come on, they don't even seem to have an ounce of remorse.
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The morals of this manga are all out of whack.
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Ugh, so fucking Japanese. not every villain is redeemable. "Oh, I'm just so misunderstood. I strayed just a bit from the path and ended up brutally murdering several of my friends and anyone else that got in my way or mildly inconvenienced me, but I'm just so misunderstood. Waa waa". Ugh. And what does this retard think is going to happen to the rapists and murderous thieves that he fights? "don't kill them." Why the fuck not? Do you think they're going to magically become good people afterwards because you hit them in the face? That's not how life works. Rehabilitation only works with a system designed to rehabilitate and with criminals that have the capacity in the first place; you can't reform a person with anti-social personality disorder (a psychopath). And someone who's killed dozens of people for mildly inconveniencing him with no remorse is a psychopath or right next to it.
@wakanana
what moral code? he literally tricked a woman into marrying him and then murdered her. he didn't even have to murder her to get control of the business, so I can only assume he did it for kiks. it is a redemption in the eyes of the audience, an attempt to excuse their (often horrendous) actions.
your examples assume the person isn't a psychopath (literally a person without conscience). they don't have to twirl their mustaches or go on a wild constant murder spree to be psychopaths. they just have to see other people as nothing more than playthings for their amusement. mass shooters aren't the only way to be a person without morals (there are plenty of them in positions of power throughout the world).
your examples do not take into account other explanations for said behaviour. not everyone laments or wishes to repent for their actions. perhaps they've just gotten old and realize that they can no longer compete in the rat race of their younger lives. their transition is not one of sinners repenting to god but of survival and necessity.
@wakanana
what moral code? he literally tricked a woman into marrying him and then murdered her. he didn't even have to murder her to get control of the business, so I can only assume he did it for kiks. it is a redemption in the eyes of the audience, an attempt to excuse their (often horrendous) actions.
your examples assume the person isn't a psychopath (literally a person without conscience). they don't have to twirl their mustaches or go on a wild constant murder spree to be psychopaths. they just have to see other people as nothing more than playthings for their amusement. mass shooters aren't the only way to be a person without morals (there are plenty of them in positions of power throughout the world).
your examples do not take into account other explanations for said behaviour. not everyone laments or wishes to repent for their actions. perhaps they've just gotten old and realize that they can no longer compete in the rat race of their younger lives. their transition is not one of sinners repenting to god but of survival and necessity.
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This arc is so dragged out... 😴
As for people saying things about Rembrant... the only one that knew the full story is Tomoe, who is a dragon totally distant of any earthly human morals until she met Makoto, so for her until Rembrant is useful for her master she doesn't care. But I agree he's a freaking evil guy that deserved those things coming for him. Too bad Makoto knew nothing about it. And by the few merchants and adventurers we see the morals in this world are really screwed up anyway. 🤠
This is just my trashy opinion. 😗
As for people saying things about Rembrant... the only one that knew the full story is Tomoe, who is a dragon totally distant of any earthly human morals until she met Makoto, so for her until Rembrant is useful for her master she doesn't care. But I agree he's a freaking evil guy that deserved those things coming for him. Too bad Makoto knew nothing about it. And by the few merchants and adventurers we see the morals in this world are really screwed up anyway. 🤠
This is just my trashy opinion. 😗
@nebukanezzer
@Geany
@Balancegrim
I don't think there's an attempt to redeem them. Even criminals of the worst kinds tend to keep some sort of moral code, or at least believe in some ideals even if they don't practice them. To be truly without morals is to be a mass shooter. Even sinners believe in God, so to speak. Thus, without redeeming them or justifying their actions, simply put, many years after they got to the top by foul means they have more or less embraced a more calm, meek existence. This falls in line with how a mob boss would want to act and live in his older age, after the power blood war is long over. To be twirling his mustache and killing everyone at this point just isn't realistic. Remember The Godfather movies where Michael keeps trying to clean up his business after massacring people in his 20's. His efforts don't really make him a good guy, do they? So this too isn't redemption for these characters, they're just better written than simple evil bosses.
Then again maybe I'm overthinking the writing considering the main sidekicks genocided a town.
@Geany
@Balancegrim
I don't think there's an attempt to redeem them. Even criminals of the worst kinds tend to keep some sort of moral code, or at least believe in some ideals even if they don't practice them. To be truly without morals is to be a mass shooter. Even sinners believe in God, so to speak. Thus, without redeeming them or justifying their actions, simply put, many years after they got to the top by foul means they have more or less embraced a more calm, meek existence. This falls in line with how a mob boss would want to act and live in his older age, after the power blood war is long over. To be twirling his mustache and killing everyone at this point just isn't realistic. Remember The Godfather movies where Michael keeps trying to clean up his business after massacring people in his 20's. His efforts don't really make him a good guy, do they? So this too isn't redemption for these characters, they're just better written than simple evil bosses.
Then again maybe I'm overthinking the writing considering the main sidekicks genocided a town.
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@Balancegrim
I never said they were repentant. I just said they had turned relatively peaceful. I didn't even say they weren't psychopathic, only that they had calmed down in these later years. Enjoying the fruits of the work, if you will. Their attitude being a "redemption in the eyes of the audience" is just your personal interpretation, not to be projected onto every reader.
I never said they were repentant. I just said they had turned relatively peaceful. I didn't even say they weren't psychopathic, only that they had calmed down in these later years. Enjoying the fruits of the work, if you will. Their attitude being a "redemption in the eyes of the audience" is just your personal interpretation, not to be projected onto every reader.
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@wakanana
'relatively peaceful' is very different to going far out of your way to help the MC, which he has done multiple times. He is never going to get any reward for what he is currently doing and it makes no sense given his casually murderous, and selfishly decietful past.
And no, the whole point of writing like this is to give the character redeeming values, even when that makes no sense given their prior actions, mentality, and biology.
The author neede to pick one, either make him a helpful side character that was unfairly targetted.
or a decietful, manipulative, murder-for-expediency, prick.
you can't have it both ways
'relatively peaceful' is very different to going far out of your way to help the MC, which he has done multiple times. He is never going to get any reward for what he is currently doing and it makes no sense given his casually murderous, and selfishly decietful past.
And no, the whole point of writing like this is to give the character redeeming values, even when that makes no sense given their prior actions, mentality, and biology.
The author neede to pick one, either make him a helpful side character that was unfairly targetted.
or a decietful, manipulative, murder-for-expediency, prick.
you can't have it both ways
@Balancegrim
Again, saying "the whole point of writing like this is to give the character redeeming values" is your personal interpretation projected unto the author. Perhaps the guy just wants to invest in a promising entrepreneur. Make him a friend early on. Maybe he'll end up betraying the MC or something.
I remind you of the last line in my original post, which wonders about the utility of thinking this through too much: the main sidekicks genocided a town.
Again, saying "the whole point of writing like this is to give the character redeeming values" is your personal interpretation projected unto the author. Perhaps the guy just wants to invest in a promising entrepreneur. Make him a friend early on. Maybe he'll end up betraying the MC or something.
I remind you of the last line in my original post, which wonders about the utility of thinking this through too much: the main sidekicks genocided a town.
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Again, no, the whole point of writing like this is to give the character redeeming values, even when that makes no sense given their prior actions, mentality, and biology.
The author neede to pick one, either make him a helpful side character that was unfairly targetted. or a decietful, manipulative, murder-for-expediency, prick.
it is not a personal interpretation. that is what this kind of character development is used for, in this case, used exceptionally poorly
that they genocided a town is your personal interpretation. those buildings could have been empty
...but they likely weren't, logically and statisticly. the fact that they did so by accident during a minor and meaningless argument is disturbing. but another example of flash over substance. it showed off their power at the expense of their character and the sound judgement of living an exceptionally long life with that power should give.
The author neede to pick one, either make him a helpful side character that was unfairly targetted. or a decietful, manipulative, murder-for-expediency, prick.
it is not a personal interpretation. that is what this kind of character development is used for, in this case, used exceptionally poorly
that they genocided a town is your personal interpretation. those buildings could have been empty
...but they likely weren't, logically and statisticly. the fact that they did so by accident during a minor and meaningless argument is disturbing. but another example of flash over substance. it showed off their power at the expense of their character and the sound judgement of living an exceptionally long life with that power should give.
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Interesting that Rembrandt is being portrayed in this manner - I'm quite glad that the story didn't follow the easy route of portraying him as strictly good or bad. The business world is no doubt a cutthroat one, and other companies will certainly have their own things to hide - though perhaps not quite to the same extent.
Is Rembrandt helping out the MC to a strangely convenient degree? Maybe, maybe not - the same could be said for what Makoto's done for him. He immediately gave the requested ingredient, provided an appropriate alchemist that finished making the potion by the next day, and further helped administer it, a task that even a group of armed men couldn't handle. Perhaps Rembrandt genuinely wanted to repay his kindness; perhaps he saw potential in the company given Makoto's abilities and connections (including acing the merchant exam); and perhaps he wants to see for himself if Makoto can truly establish an "ideal", "honest" company given his rather peculiar disposition.
At the very least, I have no major qualms with how Rembrandt's been portrayed so far - I just hope that his past won't be neglected, because it definitely feels like it should play a role in his future decisions.
Is Rembrandt helping out the MC to a strangely convenient degree? Maybe, maybe not - the same could be said for what Makoto's done for him. He immediately gave the requested ingredient, provided an appropriate alchemist that finished making the potion by the next day, and further helped administer it, a task that even a group of armed men couldn't handle. Perhaps Rembrandt genuinely wanted to repay his kindness; perhaps he saw potential in the company given Makoto's abilities and connections (including acing the merchant exam); and perhaps he wants to see for himself if Makoto can truly establish an "ideal", "honest" company given his rather peculiar disposition.
At the very least, I have no major qualms with how Rembrandt's been portrayed so far - I just hope that his past won't be neglected, because it definitely feels like it should play a role in his future decisions.
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@firosahoge what Am I watching ?
Ok now making complexe characters that can't be seen as plain evil or good is a thing and could feel refreshing when you're only reading shitty stories with these types of villains BUT I am telling you that every human is in fact both evil and good; we're always between the two through thoughts and sometimes through actions.
You're responsible for everything you do. That president and his butler are the scums of the earth (knowing whether if they're evil or good; in which way morally ? Socially ? Lawfully? It doesn't really matter) . Not only because they're aware of rules and regulations but also because they pretend to be something they're not. I see people saying they turned out good or peaceful ???????????????????????????????????
There's so many things to explain that it hurts my brain. My english is really sloppy but I'll try for a bit. It was already said through and through that they act based on reputation which is power for a merchant. Of course he has to keep up the act, they both lie, murder at the turn of a hat for personal gains. Was it impossible to remain righteous while knowing shady and dirty inner workings of guilds? If you're righteous, it doesn't mean you have to be naïve. The fact that most people in the comments are saying : "good I like them, or good I like to see people portrayed nor good nor bad". You're in serious need to read philosophers or any good novel like classics for that matter because you're talking about concepts that are way beyong your understanding. Portraying them as being nor good nor bad is being clueless because at no point did they ever defend someone else's interests when they acted their crimes. Why did they try to be rich again? Seem like motives, personal motivations are all thrown out the window in the manga. It's the images of the manga itself that first portrayed plain docile and kind and then showed them evil to no end to finally come to the conclusion that they're needed for Makoto?
Not only considering Makoto, it's not needed (why does he want to be a merchant again?) but also rising in the merchant through their aid makes your rise not only cynical but you'd also be ignorant of all evil that has been done by them. Meaning, they trade with them and don't care about their nature in the slightless. Business is business eh ? Is that right now...
The way Tomoe reacts is completely like JAPANESE people not at all like a dragon that's gone dull to human morals. That hypocrisis brought by the famous "ura" "omote" and the ever lasting non-confrontational behaviour to just watch as disgusting acts are being unfold. I'm sorry; I'm from Europe and I don't think it's only linked to culture but it's rather about thinking, philosophy (Most philosophers no matter their origin be it in ancient greece or elsewhere because for humans universal truths, rights and objective qualities are real) that would think in this case : remaining silent or not talking about the truth makes you an accomplice. At the very least, if you have any dignity as a human being you wouldn't associate with them no matter the benefits if you're not motivated enough to clean up the trash ( it's likely these two can never be punished by anyone if the MC doesn't do it himself, instead they'll live happily while not being held responsable for any act they've commited). That's the pole opposite of what a redemption is as not only are there no actions but there are no thoughts as well, NOT EVEN AN OUNCE OF GUILT. How can redemption start? Repentance is not even enough to start redemption let alone the :" I'm helping the MC because he's interesting and do things I can't so I'm a good guy now".
Honestly if they side with him.... What's the point of having that much power, no trouble ahead, wealth etc if you're not righteous ? As all human beings are both good and evil and most more evil than good (in order to survive, Seneca: "all men are bad") then in which way his vision is any different from everybody else? I've seen the Godwin point being cleared in the comments; do you think that everything Hitler did only lead to evil things? Of course not. If you do evil things and that indirectly leads to good things happening (I'm not saying Hitler did indirectly anything good though), could you get credit from the infinity of causes and consequences that lead to this good? No you can't or else criminals would be saints (not the religion type). That's why no matter how much good an evil character would do indirectly , he'd still be evil because his intentions, psyche and actions are still morally wrong no matter how you look at it. It's like the Evil demon world in these shitty cliche isekai stories could take credit for rallying humanity as one and by being killed bring peace for a while. There is no motivation of doing so unlike in some manga like Code Geass, so you can't he's done good. As long as someone sides with the MC, he's good? Fuck that cliche....
The people making manga in general really need more time dedicated to thinking rather than drawing I suppose, I must say that being ethnocentrist (all humans are) to the extend of feeling like an insular,"Japan being the big island", really doesn't help as most people still act in normalized ways and never question concepts or try to understand them as japanese society would feel threatened from thinkers. Though the real independant intellectual elites, the free thinkers, would bypass it no matter the time or place.
Ok now making complexe characters that can't be seen as plain evil or good is a thing and could feel refreshing when you're only reading shitty stories with these types of villains BUT I am telling you that every human is in fact both evil and good; we're always between the two through thoughts and sometimes through actions.
You're responsible for everything you do. That president and his butler are the scums of the earth (knowing whether if they're evil or good; in which way morally ? Socially ? Lawfully? It doesn't really matter) . Not only because they're aware of rules and regulations but also because they pretend to be something they're not. I see people saying they turned out good or peaceful ???????????????????????????????????
There's so many things to explain that it hurts my brain. My english is really sloppy but I'll try for a bit. It was already said through and through that they act based on reputation which is power for a merchant. Of course he has to keep up the act, they both lie, murder at the turn of a hat for personal gains. Was it impossible to remain righteous while knowing shady and dirty inner workings of guilds? If you're righteous, it doesn't mean you have to be naïve. The fact that most people in the comments are saying : "good I like them, or good I like to see people portrayed nor good nor bad". You're in serious need to read philosophers or any good novel like classics for that matter because you're talking about concepts that are way beyong your understanding. Portraying them as being nor good nor bad is being clueless because at no point did they ever defend someone else's interests when they acted their crimes. Why did they try to be rich again? Seem like motives, personal motivations are all thrown out the window in the manga. It's the images of the manga itself that first portrayed plain docile and kind and then showed them evil to no end to finally come to the conclusion that they're needed for Makoto?
Not only considering Makoto, it's not needed (why does he want to be a merchant again?) but also rising in the merchant through their aid makes your rise not only cynical but you'd also be ignorant of all evil that has been done by them. Meaning, they trade with them and don't care about their nature in the slightless. Business is business eh ? Is that right now...
The way Tomoe reacts is completely like JAPANESE people not at all like a dragon that's gone dull to human morals. That hypocrisis brought by the famous "ura" "omote" and the ever lasting non-confrontational behaviour to just watch as disgusting acts are being unfold. I'm sorry; I'm from Europe and I don't think it's only linked to culture but it's rather about thinking, philosophy (Most philosophers no matter their origin be it in ancient greece or elsewhere because for humans universal truths, rights and objective qualities are real) that would think in this case : remaining silent or not talking about the truth makes you an accomplice. At the very least, if you have any dignity as a human being you wouldn't associate with them no matter the benefits if you're not motivated enough to clean up the trash ( it's likely these two can never be punished by anyone if the MC doesn't do it himself, instead they'll live happily while not being held responsable for any act they've commited). That's the pole opposite of what a redemption is as not only are there no actions but there are no thoughts as well, NOT EVEN AN OUNCE OF GUILT. How can redemption start? Repentance is not even enough to start redemption let alone the :" I'm helping the MC because he's interesting and do things I can't so I'm a good guy now".
Honestly if they side with him.... What's the point of having that much power, no trouble ahead, wealth etc if you're not righteous ? As all human beings are both good and evil and most more evil than good (in order to survive, Seneca: "all men are bad") then in which way his vision is any different from everybody else? I've seen the Godwin point being cleared in the comments; do you think that everything Hitler did only lead to evil things? Of course not. If you do evil things and that indirectly leads to good things happening (I'm not saying Hitler did indirectly anything good though), could you get credit from the infinity of causes and consequences that lead to this good? No you can't or else criminals would be saints (not the religion type). That's why no matter how much good an evil character would do indirectly , he'd still be evil because his intentions, psyche and actions are still morally wrong no matter how you look at it. It's like the Evil demon world in these shitty cliche isekai stories could take credit for rallying humanity as one and by being killed bring peace for a while. There is no motivation of doing so unlike in some manga like Code Geass, so you can't he's done good. As long as someone sides with the MC, he's good? Fuck that cliche....
The people making manga in general really need more time dedicated to thinking rather than drawing I suppose, I must say that being ethnocentrist (all humans are) to the extend of feeling like an insular,"Japan being the big island", really doesn't help as most people still act in normalized ways and never question concepts or try to understand them as japanese society would feel threatened from thinkers. Though the real independant intellectual elites, the free thinkers, would bypass it no matter the time or place.
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Quite the walltext to just say that western morals are different to japanese sensibilities. This is the kind of person that would gladly raze a third world country just to install their own sense of self-righteousness and whatever is the replacement for virtue these days even if they type paragraphs just paraphrasing people from long gone eras.
Needless to say I wouldn't devote such analysis for something that is likely just to be absorbed with three or four neurons.
Needless to say I wouldn't devote such analysis for something that is likely just to be absorbed with three or four neurons.
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