Watashitachi wa Moto Joshi desu - Vol. 2 Ch. 10

[italianspy]

I don't agree that the mother is transphobic. She doesn't want to discourage Rinko from transitioning, she wants Rinko to not be under the illusion she'll go back as if nothing happened and she wants to do it for herself, if she's going to do it at all. She will be a woman, but not the same woman she was.

But if Rinko decides to transition after that, she'll support her all the way.

I don't think there's anything transphobic in that take?

she's transphobic for the skeleton comment and she's transphobic for immediately saying no instead of saying she wants to help while also warning that there will still be things that are missing. That is literally discouraging her from transitioning. Just because transitioning isn't exactly the same as being born a woman doesn't mean her daughter has to be stuck in a man's body. You can make good points and you can have good intentions while also being transphobic.

 

[Brightamethyst]

While normally I'd call her mother's stance transphobic, in this particular case I agree with her.

Frankly, this is not a decision that should be rushed. Unlike the real world where anyone wanting to transition has had the time and real world experience leading up to that decision, this is a fictional scenario where Rinka's world was flipped around overnight.
She's completely overwhelmed by an entirely new body with new hormones running through it, is in a state of constant panic about EVERYTHING, social, physical, etc. Her experience with her new self and situation so far is a matter of days, not weeks, months, or years. There's no way for anyone, including Rinka herself right now, to know if what she's feeling is actual gender dysphoria, or just shock and confusion and just wanting everything to go back to normal. I agree with her mother that no life altering decisions should be made until she's sure it's also what future Rinka would want, and not just what the still in shock current Rinka wants.

At the very least Rinka should be talking her feelings through with a therapist first before any decision is made, one way or the other.

 

[Kirin-kun]

she's transphobic for the skeleton comment and she's transphobic for immediately saying no instead of saying she wants to help while also warning that there will still be things that are missing. That is literally discouraging her from transitioning. Just because transitioning isn't exactly the same as being born a woman doesn't mean her daughter has to be stuck in a man's body. You can make good points and you can have good intentions while also being transphobic.

Um. The skeleton comment was an explanation of why she thought some boy was disguised as her daughter. Probably the shoulders that got wider, the hips or whatever. Remember it was a "magical" change overnight, where her whole body structure changed. I don't know what's the job of the mother, but maybe she's used to evaluate body frames (clothes designer or whatever) and the change in Rinko shocked her and she thought it was someone else posing as Rinko.

And I don't see how warning your teen kid that they shouldn't have too high expectations is transphobic.

As for Rinko being "stuck in a man's body", it's been 3 days ffs. Of course she's going to panic and want to go back immediately. But making an irreversible decision in panic is never a good idea.

 

[Mitchell1711]

Hmm interesting how they only went to request permission for hormone treatment and then the mom instead starts talking like shes about to be forced into a massive lifechanging surgeries, definitely nothing strange about that.

 

[italianspy]

like I said, you can be right while also being transphobic. I'm not sure why you're taking so much issue here with one adjective I used in my entire last post. I also think that she was purposefully written as transphobic specifically to create this sense of nuance where you can agree with her while disliking her as a person to create more drama and engagement.

 

[definitionofinsanity]

You put a lot of emotion into this so I'll try to be helpful since I got a minute and want to organize for another thing. If you have to hear this sort of thing from even two people without somehow softening, you've majorly messed up in life.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I don't care. You're conflating the two issues. Don't.

Spoiler

Respectfully, you're not familiar with the emotions or medicine, and very familiar with talking points.

When people say "respectfully," they rarely actually mean that.

And, respectfully, I do understand the situation. And you're not aware of situations like the statistical reality.

Regret for SRS surgeries and HRT should be looked at in comparison for other life-altering changes

It should be looked at how it affects the patent overall. We have the statistics for that.

Point me to another life-altering change that has a suicide rate nearing that of transgendered people pre and post surgery and you'll have a point. Unfortunately for your argument, it doesn't really exist. Both pre and post surgery, no other demographic that I'm aware of exceeds that of suicides for transgendered people.

especially against usual cosmetic surgeries that somehow even children can have.

...None of which have a suicide rate even nearing that of transgendered people.

Suicide rates are relevant in context of how a society treats people, which given the media environment involves discrimination.

ABSOLUTE HORSESHIT. And I can prove it. Again, like I brought up with the other person: What is another group with astronomically high rates of suicide - still far belong transgendered people by comparable for statistical purposes? American veterans. Who, again, are one of the most respected and accepted groups in American culture and society? American veterans.

American veterans, like transgendered people, aren't killing themselves because of discrimination. They'd doing it because of their personal situation.

And if you look at the suicide rates of transgendered people in more "open minded and progressive" countries/states... it's not significantly lower. There's no correlation.

Immediate support and reducing documented avenues for harm like local peer abuse are the most powerful factors for reducing self-harm.

...Or, you know, letting someone have mental health resources BEFORE that becomes an issue. Proactive is always been than reactive in this case.

For most readers the best cue is the more a story pushes political outrage the less it's about helping readers to discern fact from fiction. See those establishments who delayed mounting climate science

I find it hilarious you talk about me infantilizing trans people meanwhile you compare their issue with FUCKING CLIMATE SCIENCE.

Yeah, that's not insulting in the least.

when there's now a new-agey medical counter-establishment against LGBT and in step with political parties and certain media powers. Similar to the climate or sexuality sciences, or most conspiracies

Again, how is comparing and categorizing transgendered people with conspiracies, climate science and politics not demeaning to them? Because it is.

while the major research countries have Do No Harm and ethics review boards, you're neglecting the obvious fact that your designated villains are also professionals making decisions off of a lot of information, not a majority of 2-dimensional fools.

The only thing both sides can agree on readily is not enough scientific studies have been done on this subject. So, no.

Outrage and irrational conspiracies are a very old weapon against minorities, so this trap is common.

Poisoning the well.

Whether you see yourself as trivializing, you're certainly infantilizing both trans people and both the research and empathic observations of modern science.

Buddy, I'm not the one here putting the struggles of trans-people on the same level as fucking climatology and demeaning their humanity.

You're seemed loosely on track about overall support, whatever that means to you, then use a crude and addictingly visceral meme against giving affirming support... "labotomy".

See? That right there is the problem. Because you don't recognize that the logic that you're applying here in not examining gender reassignment surgery and its benefits and cons is the EXACT SAME FUCKING MENTALITY that drove the medical community behind lobotomies. And shit science like phrenology.

Now, now... Don't misconstrue that like I bet you want to and say that's "me comparing phrenology to transgenderism." Because that's NOT what I said. I said the reasoning of the medical community is utilizing the same logic. And it is. That's just factual.

Disgust is one of the most powerful emotions.

Yeah, you're definitely demonstrating it. I can feel it through my screen. That says more about you, I'm afraid.

I hope you can understand this as not trying to insult you either.

Yeah, I don't believe that whatsoever.

 

[Kirin-kun]

like I said, you can be right while also being transphobic. I'm not sure why you're taking so much issue here with one adjective I used in my entire last post. I also think that she was purposefully written as transphobic specifically to create this sense of nuance where you can agree with her while disliking her as a person to create more drama and engagement.

I take issue because the word "transphobic" is used to paint the mother as an intrinsically bad person, which she obviously isn't, in my opinion.

Transphobic for me, would mean she outright refuses for Rinko to transition for specious reasons, gaslight her by saying she always thought she would be better as a boy, or say that she wouldn't be "a real woman".

Phobic means "averse to", "disliking", "fear of". Which the mother didn't show any sign of. She wants what's best for Rinko, that's all.

The main reason for disliking her would be that she's not present at Rinko's side in these difficult times, or she tends to be too sure of herself. But not for an imagined transphobia.

I get the impression some people dislike her because she didn't sign the form immediately.

 

[Exzyeed]

Oh boy this is a spicy chapter for people.

TBH the mother is 100% right. She isn't making the decision for herself but someone else who she thinks would want a girl. It's better to take some more time to let things settle as I don't think it has even been a month in the stories time.

This is a full biological sex change so it is better to settle feelings and weigh up the options.

 

[Exzyeed]

I take issue because the word "transphobic" is used to paint the mother as an intrinsically bad person, which she obviously isn't, in my opinion.

Transphobic for me, would mean she outright refuses for Rinko to transition for specious reasons or says that she wouldn't be "a real woman".

Phobic means "averse to", "disliking", "fear of". Which the mother didn't show any sign of. She wants what's best for Rinko, that's all.

The main reason for disliking her would be that she's not present at Rinko's side in these difficult times, or she tends to be too sure of herself. But not for an imagined transphobia.

I get the impression some people dislike her because she didn't sign the form immediately.

Exactly. The mother isn't against her transitioning. She just wants Rinko to stop and think. I don't think it has even been a month in the stories time and she's like 15? It's a big decision and teenagers can be impulsive (as the mother called out saying she should do it for herself and not others though of course could have phrased it better) and just wants her to put some more thought into it. She's not transphobic.

 

[JKTV]

call me when the "supreme army of woke" and "insurgent state of anti-woke" start fighting, ill bring popcorn
who wants butter?

come on, dont act like the comments wouldnt be like this when you started reading this manga

 

[terribletrivium]

I take issue because the word "transphobic" is used to paint the mother as an intrinsically bad person, which she obviously isn't, in my opinion.

Transphobic for me, would mean she outright refuses for Rinko to transition for specious reasons, gaslight her by saying she always thought she would be better as a boy, or say that she wouldn't be "a real woman".

Phobic means "averse to", "disliking", "fear of". Which the mother didn't show any sign of. She wants what's best for Rinko, that's all.

Maybe you should look into this a little deeper than dictionary definitions. Someone saying a transphobic statement doesn't mean they're intrinsically a bad person, that's just your interpretation. You can criticize a person without damning them to hell for eternity.

 

[asherdales]

God I hate the mother. She definitely twisted it to suit her view point. She knew that her daughter would be confused and scared so she used social engineering on Rinko. Apologizing when she's never apologized before and using a leading question about a lover to fluster Rinko. She's vile and malicious tearing her daughter down saying she'll never be a real woman again then bouncing when she needs support the most. I'm surprised Rinko doesn't outright hate her.

Edit: I keep reading these comments and it seems like people forget that Rinko ALREADY has gender dysphoria because she was unwillingly changed FtM by the sex change disorder. Being in a good mental state to make decisions is hard because what's happened.

 

[Sonaldo]

They should start hormones asap before further changes take place. Would help mitigate thr dysphoria

Therapy would also mitigate the dysphoria. And it wouldn't be harmful to her

 

[Sonaldo]

thanks for the chapter.

tbh, I don't think the mom is entirely right. Sure Rinko should do it for herself and because she wants to, but the mom literally just went back and chatted with them for 1? 2? hours, how can she be so sure that Rinko is not doing this for herself?

She can both want to go back to a girl for herself and for love, those things aren't mutually exclusive.

Also, realistically, if someone who was happy with their current sex randomly got sex change by supernatural means one day, I'm pretty sure they would want to change back to their original sex for themself.

But like the mother said, Rinko would never change back to her original sex. No matter how many hormones they pump into her or surgeries they put her through.

 

[Sonaldo]

And she's right lol. Try denying it all you want. If being a woman isn't dependent on someone biological state, this whole thing wouldn't exist. She should've been able to be a woman despite having a male body. But she knows it's impossible.

Did you miss the part where she was pulling out the "you'll never be a real woman" lines?

 

[Sonaldo]

man, cis people have some wild takes huh

You know damn well we can't say the same thing about you guys lol. Perpertual victimization syndrome

 

[Sonaldo]

That's not what she said, but you do you.

She just said that Rinko shouldn't expect to go back exactly to how she was before.

And how she was before is a woman.

 

[gallifreyan100]

Claiming what I said was offensive says more about you, and nothing good, and your intolerance than it does about me.

Also? Trying to shut down people and honest conversation like what you just did is incredibly shitty and disgusting behavior that proves the concerns I laid out in my initial post correct.

Shame on you.

I really don't care. Go on and start a fight about it.

 

[Trevoga]

Fuck reading all of the comments, I'm angry enough already.

This woman makes me angry. Acting like she's got any right to hold this over her daughter when she's an absentee mother that clearly doesn't know shit.

People that say she's right are missing one important thing. If Rinko just waits until whatever age she'd be allowed to make decisions about herself, male puberty will kick in. Her voice will deepen IRREVOCABLY. She'll get facial hair, increased body hair, both of which are extra pain and expenses to deal with, but at least they can be undone. The vocal cords change cannot be undone. So at the very least she should go on blockers.

And to those that say that I can't apply real transition logic to this fictional story, you lost that argument the moment the story itself brought up real transition as one of Rinko's options. And in such details too - hormone therapy, surgery, artificial vagina.

As for the mother being right when she says Rinko won't go back to being a "real woman", or however she puts it, through transition, well, thanks, Captain Obvious. Glad you could make it, we wouldn't have solved this one without you. Seriously, people, is this the acshually hill you wanna die on? Not letting Rinko go on HRT just because a future operation that she might not even go for won't give her a real actual vagina with a uterus and the works? Just because she used to have one? If someone loses a leg, do we just let them bleed out because we can't give them a real leg yet?

 

[oyagabo]

While sex change disorder is irreversible who's to say you can't get it twice?