Watashitachi wa Moto Joshi desu - Vol. 2 Ch. 10

[Sonaldo]

You literally cannot oppose these people views. Like not even single thought is allowed. You need to 100% follow every and each of their directions no matter how wrong it is. Like Dylan Mulvaney literally used to say that woman vagina are barbie pouch. But if you try to say that's misogynistic, you'll be cancelled in no time by this people.

I wonder. Is telling the truth of the matters to a trans person, transphobic?

Mother just says to Rinko: "get informed first, don't rush your decision and don't get your hopes up because it's not all rainbow and sunshine and your disorder won't magically disappear". She doesn't even say she shouldn't transition or that she wouldn't be a "real woman".

But suddenly, she's the worst mother of all times to some people.

 

[NotSomeone]

You basically saying woman is a collections of stereotypes. So what is a woman doesn't want to fill the societal gender roles expected of them? Do they cease to be a woman? Whatever happened to challenging traditional gender convention? Also why are you generalizing cultures? You realize there's a lot of different cultures in the world? In most of the middle east for example, woman aren't expected to study or know things. So does that mean woman that wants to study isn't a woman?

You're misunderstanding me and I should not bother myself but I will.
A woman is not a collection of stereotypes, I did not say that.
Look, I made you think about hunter gatherers to strip down culture from the argument because I am talking about something more rooted in nature...

You know what? It's the rule of the duck, you look at something in a pond, it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and feels like a duck, that's a fucking duck.

Same shit with woman, if something looks like one, feels like one, acts like one, it is one.

And remember how some natural born women can't do some shit that "FaKE WOmeN" can't do either? So yeah these things are not a good parameter to measure what is a woman.

That's as dumbed down as I can make it.

 

[Sonaldo]

You're misunderstanding me and I should not bother myself but I will.
A woman is not a collection of stereotypes, I did not say that.
Look, I made you think about hunter gatherers to strip down culture from the argument because I am talking about something more rooted in nature...

You know what? It's the rule of the duck, you look at something in a pond, it looks like a duck, acts like a duck and feels like a duck, that's a fucking duck.

Same shit with woman, if something looks like one, feels like one, acts like one, it is one.

And remember how some natural born women can't do some shit that "FaKE WOmeN" can't do either? So yeah these things are not a good parameter to measure what is a woman.

That's as dumbed down as I can make it.

Oh now you're reducing woman to how they look and act? What about woman that doesn't look or act like your typical woman? Like genuinely , what does your typical woman look or act like? And what even does 'feeling like a woman" is?

But it is. A two tired car doesn't mean all two tired vehicle are cars. We still generally define cars as a vehicle with four wheel. You can apply this with woman. The only reason you won't is because you won't offend certain communities.

 

[NotSomeone]

Oh now you're reducing woman to how they look and act? What about woman that doesn't look or act like your typical woman? Like genuinely , what does your typical woman look or act like? And what even does 'feeling like a woman" is?

But it is. A two tired car doesn't mean all two tired vehicle are cars. We still generally define cars as a vehicle with four wheel. You can apply this with woman. The only reason you won't is because you won't offend certain communities.

We are OBVIOUSLY reducing, thats how you define things, you reduce them to the bare minimum while preserving the essence of what it is. No matter how much you try to problematize it theres nothing wrong with it.
And I did NOT reduce it to "looks and acts", I reduced it to BEHAVIOR.

"But what about a woman who does not act or look like typical woman?"
Then it is an atypical woman, still a woman, just slightly different.

"What does feeling like a woman mean"?
I don't know, maybe I'll show you a photo of Hunter Schafer and a brick and you tell me wich one is a woman.
Or maybe you can ask the damn person if it is a woman, and if the person says she's a woman and your brain looks at her and goes "Welp, this right here in front of me behaves like a woman, looks like one and says it's one, then most probably it's a woman".

Your car logic is also flawed. We don't define what is a car and what is not a car by the number of wheels.
Just like we don't define what is a woman by the capacity of giving birth or the existence of the uterus.

 

[BobTheSkrull]

You basically saying woman is a collections of stereotypes. So what is a woman doesn't want to fill the societal gender roles expected of them? Do they cease to be a woman? Whatever happened to challenging traditional gender convention? Also why are you generalizing cultures? You realize there's a lot of different cultures in the world? In most of the middle east for example, woman aren't expected to study or know things. So does that mean woman that wants to study isn't a woman? Which culture are we supposed to follow in these "woke" definition of woman that seeks to include everyone/not offend everyone?

 

[Illusione-Tempus]

But how she was before is a woman. Like that's the whole problem with this. She used to be a woman and now she's a man because she has a male body. The mum is right. All those surgery and hormones aint gonna turn her into a woman again. If you're saying she's still a woman despite having a man body, why even go with all those surgery and hormones to change it? Just be a woman with a man body. The fact that Rinko knows this is impossible proves her mum is right. Rinko should just accept that fact. She's a man now.

Yeah that is basically the main crux of the whole issue. Despite everything she could do in order to "go back to normal", the best that she could become is a trans-woman, not a full-fledged woman with all the working components like she used to be before the magical sex-changing disorder. She needs that reality check.

And the comments pointing out why Mom asking who she is changing back for? Mom definitely figured that there is some ulterior motive for wanting to change back so quickly. Like reminder, Rinko was pretty darn open about telling her closer friends that she became a man, but the minute her crush got involved she went into great strides to hide the fact (before getting discovered anyway). She is so worried about people finding out that she became a man because she did not want her crush to find that out.

It's more of a bait question because how else would she get Rinko to confess that it's for the sake of chasing a crush.

 

[Sonaldo]

You people say terfs are bad for reducing woman to their biological parts but unironically uses this misogynist shit as your defense lol. Bunch of clowns

 

[BobTheSkrull]

You people say terfs are bad for reducing woman to their biological parts but unironically uses this misogynist shit as your defense lol. Bunch of clowns

The language used is questionable, but the point holds. If gender was as simple as you made it out to be, I wouldn't hold an attraction towards trans women and not have an attraction towards cis men.

 

[Sonaldo]

We are OBVIOUSLY reducing, thats how you define things, you reduce them to the bare minimum while preserving the essence of what it is. No matter how much you try to problematize it theres nothing wrong with it.
And I did NOT reduce it to "looks and acts", I reduced it to BEHAVIOR.

Okay what's a typical woman behavior?

"But what about a woman who does not act or look like typical woman?"
Then it is an atypical woman, still a woman, just slightly different.

Well I can also use this argument while defining woman using their reproductive organs. It'll also be far more accurate that your proposed definition of a woman

"What does feeling like a woman mean"?
I don't know, maybe I'll show you a photo of Hunter Schafer and a brick and you tell me wich one is a woman.
Or maybe you can ask the damn person if it is a woman, and if the person says she's a woman and your brain looks at her and goes "Welp, this right here in front of me behaves like a woman, looks like one and says it's one, then most probably it's a woman".

Well what if I still see Hunter Schafer as a man still? Because of her chromosomes? Funny, you said my car example are flawed while you're literally comparing an inanimate object with a person. How about you compare him with an actual woman, one that posses female biological parts. I'm sure we can find a lot of differences lmao. Also, if I wear a bunny suit, jump like a bunny and eat my own shit while also claiming I'm a real bunny, does that mean I'm one? Behavior, looks and speech can be deceiving. And you still haven't even told me what are the qualities that I should look for in order to determine whether or not someone is a woman. What exactly does behave like a woman means?

Your car logic is also flawed. We don't define what is a car and what is not a car by the number of wheels.
Just like we don't define what is a woman by the capacity of giving birth or the existence of the uterus.

We do. Like seriously, google the word car and the words "4-wheeled" is the first thing you'll see. And for the second part, we do. And if you say what about intersex or woman without ovaries argument, I'll redirect you to the second part of my comment

 

[Sonaldo]

The language used is questionable, but the point holds. If gender was as simple as you made it out to be, I wouldn't hold an attraction towards trans women and not have an attraction towards cis men.

No it doesn't lmao. Do you have a sexual attraction to your mum? Sister?Grandmother? If you don't, does that mean they're not woman? Glad to know their womanhood is defined by how sexually attractive they are to you. Certainly not misogynistic at all. You're an actual pos if you actually believe this bro. Like genuinely

 

[Sonaldo]

Yeah that is basically the main crux of the whole issue. Despite everything she could do in order to "go back to normal", the best that she could become is a trans-woman, not a full-fledged woman with all the working components like she used to be before the magical sex-changing disorder. She needs that reality check.

Exactly. She's never gonna be a real woman ever again. To be a woman you need a biological female body. That's the truth that a lot of people in this comment section can't accept.

 

[BobTheSkrull]

No it doesn't lmao. Do you have a sexual attraction to your mum? Sister?Grandmother? If you don't, does that mean they're not woman? Glad to know their womanhood is defined by how sexually attractive they are to you. Certainly not misogynistic at all. You're an actual pos if you actually believe this bro. Like genuinely

No, because of the Westermarck effect. I never said it was the only condition for attraction, just a baseline. Let me break it down for you, as you seem confused.

	Cis Man	Cis Woman	Trans Woman	Trans Man
Attractive	❌	✅	✅	❌
Unattractive	❌	❌	❌	❌
Family	❌	❌	❌	❌

Now, before you misunderstand further, I would like to clarify this is a simplification. Obviously there are other factors that help determine attraction. Personality, shared experiences, and compatibility go a long way. But the point stands that I am not attracted to men, and am attracted to women.


This isn't the argument I'd typically go for first, but I find it works better if I match the type of argument to the person and place. You seemed like the kind of person comfortable with 4channers and have a MonMuso avatar. Thus, the rude and horny approach.

 

[Sonaldo]

No, because of the Westermarck effect. I never said it was the only condition for attraction, just a baseline. Let me break it down for you, as you seem confused.

	Cis Man	Cis Woman	Trans Woman	Trans Man
Attractive	❌	✅	✅	❌
Unattractive	❌	❌	❌	❌
Family	❌	❌	❌	❌

Now, before you misunderstand further, I would like to clarify this is a simplification. Obviously there are other factors that help determine attraction. Personality, shared experiences, and compatibility go a long way. But the point stands that I am not attracted to men, and am attracted to women.


This isn't the argument I'd typically go for first, but I find it works better if I match the type of argument to the person and place. You seemed like the kind of person comfortable with 4channers and have a MonMuso avatar. Thus, the rude and horny approach

So if you're not attracted to someone, they're not a woman? Well women around the world shall be glad that their womanhood is defined by how attractive they are to you. Main character syndrome lol

Like this isn't a simplification, that's literally your point. You can say it's a baseline, add other factors or whatever but that's still the point. Sexually attractive to you = woman and vice versa for man. Genuinely, if you can see how reductive and downright offensive this is, you're dumb.

Also if your definition of gender is so foolproof, how can that Westermark effect override it so easily?

I'm not the one confused. You're the one making misogynistic claim and tried backtracking.

 

[BobTheSkrull]

So if you're not attracted to someone, they're not a woman? Well women around the world shall be glad that their womanhood is defined by how attractive they are to you. Main character syndrome lol

Like this isn't a simplification, that's literally your point. You can say it's a baseline, add other factors or whatever but that's still the point. Sexually attractive to you = woman and vice versa for man. Genuinely, if you can see how reductive and downright offensive this is, you're dumb.

Also if your definition of gender is so foolproof, how can that Westermark effect override it so easily?

I'm not the one confused. You're the one making misogynistic claim and tried backtracking.

Of course I can see how offensive it is. It's offensive to reduce someone's gender to nothing more than biological reactions. I can see now that limiting definitions of gender to such is genuinely wrong, and am glad that you see that too.

 

[Sonaldo]

Of course I can see how offensive it is.

Well glad to see a misogynist like you can learn. Great to see people admitting they're wrong.

It's offensive to reduce someone's gender to nothing more than biological reactions.

Well glad to know nobody is doing that. Maybe stop making stuff up okay buddy?

I can see now that limiting definitions of gender to such is genuinely wrong, and am glad that you see that too.

To define is to limit stuff Einstein. If you're not limiting stuff, you'll never be able to define it. There's literally nothing wrong with limiting stuff because again, that's how we form definitions. Its actually really simple stuff. Even a kid could understand it. Maybe try using your brain more alright . In a non-misogynistic way I mean.

 

[EchoGirl]

lol i wonder if she would've agreed if she just whipped it out or so, even if you want to change back for a 'crush' and such i don't think most ppl could accept just living as the other gender if they weren't already trans or a girl that's like "men have better career opportunities" (if it's not on some medical record that they were changed, it would be interesting if there was some protest/discrimination or so among the adult world if some 'chief ceo' changed genders and got demoted or so)

 

[KATCRX]

Disgusting.

 

[0ttaPr1nce]

The leg analogy sucks. The point that you and a lot of other people seem to miss about the whole trans people stuff is that theres a big difference between biological (Male, Female) and societal gender roles (Men, Women).
Just think that even in a hunter-gatherer society men and women have different roles they need to fill (Men are agressive and territorial, women are creative and good at problem solving...)
The thing is, aside from giving birth and breasfeeding males can fill in most of the roles females normaly fill and vice-versa.

So a born male could never be a female? Yeah, he can't give birth or breastfeed
But can a born man be woman? Sure, if he fills the societal gender role we expect a born woman to fill, sure.
And if giving birth and breastfeeding are paramount to being able to exert the role of a woman in society, then a biological born female who can't birth children is not a woman by definition.

"But can a born man be woman? Sure, if he fills the societal gender role we expect a born woman to fill, sure."

You do realise thats worse right? deducting being a woman to simply a "role" that even a man can take on if he fits the stereotypes. how can that even be measured if said roles are constantly changing? Going by that alone, many feminine or nonconforming men can be woman if they just choose to drop the man label.

 

[0ttaPr1nce]

Exactly. She's never gonna be a real woman ever again. To be a woman you need a biological female body. That's the truth that a lot of people in this comment section can't accept.

that's exactly the thing. she'll end up becoming something similar to that of a trans woman which is essentially woman* (astrick applied). she can go through with that but rinko will have to understand how that decision will affect her life going forward. Rinko is in the state of mind thinking this will magically solve her disorder and bring her back to normal without thinking it through fully

 

[definitionofinsanity]

"But can a born man be woman? Sure, if he fills the societal gender role we expect a born woman to fill, sure."

You do realise thats worse right? deducting being a woman to simply a "role" that even a man can take on if he fits the stereotypes. how can that even be measured if said roles are constantly changing? Going by that alone, many feminine or nonconforming men can be woman if they just choose to drop the man label.

Not only that, but the definition of "societal gender role we expect a born woman to fill" is nebulous. It can mean whatever they decide for it to mean. Traditional societal gender roles of a biological female would be what for most of human history? To give birth, be a mother, etc.

...Well then, by that logic he's saying that transwomen can never fill that potential roll and thus be considered a woman because... pregnancy is off the table.

So if it's not a biological function of societal/species propagation, is it a cultural one? Maybe to be a homemaker? That's just a function, that's not a gender. It's like saying, "You're a nurse? So we can expect you to be a woman, then."