Watashitachi wa Moto Joshi desu - Vol. 2 Ch. 11

[Sonaldo]

Therapy doesn't seems to have a lot of effectiveness with reducing gender dysphoria

According to big pharma lol. Is it really a surprise they're saying therapy, a significantly less profitable field will yield less results?

I understand some of your points but you seem to be against any and all form of gender treatment

Therapy. I said that so many time lol.

and at least in this fictional case it's probably a little too absolutist, like being on hormone blockers and hrt isn't healthy but it's still better than Rinko killing herself once they look like a stereotypical dude in a dress when they are 25+ (of course in all cases she would technically still be a dude in a dress but it still makes a difference psychologically and how you are treated).

Yes that's why I said therapy. You yourself said it's not healthy. It's also not a guarantee that Rinko would kill herself in the future. What if she accepted the fact that she's a man in the future? You can't undo the effect of HRT and hormone blockers.

 

[Kirin-kun]

You can't undo the effect of HRT and hormone blockers.

At least for puberty blockers, it's untrue.

It's not only used for "questioning" people, but also for kids who develop too early. Like a 7yo girl who starts puberty. It's much too early and will impair her growth. As far as I know, when they stop taking puberty blockers and if they don't take other hormones, puberty will resume normally without adverse consequences.

For HRT, some effects are permanent, some not.

 

[Sonaldo]

At least for puberty blockers, it's untrue.

It's not only used for "questioning" people, but also for kids who develop too early. Like a 7yo girl who starts puberty. It's much too early and will impair her growth. As far as I know, when they stop taking puberty blockers and if they don't take other hormones, puberty will resume normally without adverse consequences.

You're talking about people with abnormal hormone development. Of course it won't be harmful for them. But for normal people, it will absolutely be harmful. You can't pause puberty. A normal developing body needs the right amount of hormones at the right time to ensure proper growth and development.

For HRT, some effects are permanent, some not.

Exactly. There's permanent effects.

 

[Kirin-kun]

You're talking about people with abnormal hormone development. Of course it won't be harmful for them. But for normal people, it will absolutely be harmful. You can't pause puberty. A normal developing body needs the right amount of hormones at the right time to ensure proper growth and development.

Exactly. There's permanent effects.

I don't know what you mean by "normal people". And yes, you can pause puberty.

In some kids, the hormonal system is not working right (can be environmental problems) and puberty starts too early. Other than that, they're normal. It's not a disease

Puberty blockers can be used on any kid who has just started puberty and the effects are the same and totally reversible: blocking the production of puberty hormones and stopping puberty changes. The effect is exactly the same for everyone. The only difference is the time the puberty started. And as far as studies show, when they stop, puberty resumes normally (which is the goal for the ones who started too early) and there's no harmful effects.

Of course, giving puberty blockers to adults is harmful, since it'd mess with an already stable system. But that's not what we're talking about here.

Google is your friend.

 

[Sonaldo]

I don't know what you mean by "normal people". And yes, you can pause puberty.

People with proper hormonal growth. And no you cant. You literally can't because it's an essential stage in a normal human. Pausing or stopping it will lead to long term side effects. Think logically brother. So many changes occur during puberty. And yet you think stopping them all wouldn't cause anything to go wrong?

In some kids, the hormonal system is not working right (can be environmental problems) and puberty starts too early. Other than that, they're normal. It's not a disease

Oh so other than their not normal hormonal system, they're normal? You realize how stupid that sounds? Nobody said it's a disease.

Puberty blockers can be used on any kid who has just started puberty and the effects are the same and totally reversible: blocking the production of puberty hormones and stopping puberty changes.

Stopping puberty changes in a developing teenage body has side effects. Let's go to your example. Why do we need to use puberty blockers on kids that have them early? Because their body are not suited for puberty yet. Same thing with normal teenager. Their body growth correspond to puberty and stopping/pausing it will lead to long term effects on their body.

The effect is exactly the same for everyone. The only difference is the time the puberty started. And as far as studies show, when they stop, puberty resumes normally (which is the goal for the ones who started too early) and there's no harmful effects.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker#:~:text=Short-term side effects of,youth treated with GnRH agonists.

Read the long term effects. Logically thinking, a developing teenage body needs the proper amount of hormones to grow properly. Hormones have such a massive effects on our body and yet you think stopping developing teenage body from receiving it have no long term side effects?

Of course, giving puberty blockers to adults is harmful, since it'd mess with an already stable system. But that's not what we're talking about here.

Google is your friend.

And Google said it has long term effects. Sweden banned it.
Read your sentence. Adults with a developed hormonal system will be harmed by puberty blockers. Why wouldn't a teenager with a not fully developed hormonal system suffer long term side effects? Don't let the propaganda get to you please

 

[Kirin-kun]

Read the long term effects. Logically thinking, a developing teenage body needs the proper amount of hormones to grow properly. Hormones have such a massive effects on our body and yet you think stopping developing teenage body from receiving it have no long term side effects?

Citing your article: "puberty blockers are known to be safe and physically reversible treatment if stopped in the short term"

For the long term, while there's not that much research on this : "The longest follow-up study followed a transgender man who began taking puberty blockers at age 13 in 1998, before later taking hormone treatments, and later got gender confirmation surgery as an adult. His health was monitored for 22 years and at age 35 in 2010 was well-functioning, in good physical health with normal metabolic, endocrine, and bone mineral density levels. There were no clinical signs of a negative impact on brain development from taking puberty blockers."

There are no absolutes. If a medication is useful you have to weight the pros and cons. You won't keep a woman from taking birth control because of the possible (well known) side effects, will you? You can't pick and choose what results you want to see.

A lot of times, puberty blockers are given to girls with an early start of their puberty, as early as seven, because girls stop growing up around when their puberty stops. So if it starts at 7 and stops at 9, they would stop growing much too early and stay small. They wouldn't be unhealthy and you can't say that their body "wasn't ready for puberty". It's just that their small stature would have a negative impact on their SOCIAL life, because today's societies favor the tall or "average" height people. It's not a health problem. It's a social problem.

The controversy is mostly about transgenders kids, for political/societal reasons. Even then it looks like possible side effects risks are the same as for any medication taken long term.

Personally, I think puberty blockers are safe and useful in a lot of cases that don't involve gender questions, so banning them is a bad idea. Each case is different and blanket statements and decisions can affect some people's life adversely.

 

[CinderSquall]

Whether it's life saving or not is not up to you, or anyone else, to decide, but the concerned person.

Pressuring them into doing it is as unacceptable as preventing them from doing it if they have to.

Gender related surgery is important for some people's mental health sure but you can't really compare that to something like a heart surgery or a brain surgery.

And while yes an individual themselves will still be the one deciding if they want those surgery but it's not changing the fact that those are "life saving surgery".

 

[CinderSquall]

It doesn't just looks freaky lol. So many things can go wrong with SRS. The description given by this manga is frankly pretty tame.

My point is that it's wild people would assume someone would decline other life saving surgery(brain/heart) just because it looks freaky.

 

[Sonaldo]

Citing your article: "puberty blockers are known to be safe and physically reversible treatment if stopped in the short term"

Exactly.

For the long term, while there's not that much research on this : "The longest follow-up study followed a transgender man who began taking puberty blockers at age 13 in 1998, before later taking hormone treatments, and later got gender confirmation surgery as an adult. His health was monitored for 22 years and at age 35 in 2010 was well-functioning, in good physical health with normal metabolic, endocrine, and bone mineral density levels. There were no clinical signs of a negative impact on brain development from taking puberty blockers."

One case? Lol

There are no absolutes. If a medication is useful you have to weight the pros and cons.

And there's literally zero people on this chapter and the previous that think of the cons. Those that do get negative reactions. Explain that please

You won't keep a woman from taking birth control because of the possible (well known) side effects, will you? You can't pick and choose what results you want to see.

Agreed

A lot of times, puberty blockers are given to girls with an early start of their puberty, as early as seven, because girls stop growing up around when their puberty stops. So if it starts at 7 and stops at 9, they would stop growing much too early and stay small. They wouldn't be unhealthy and you can't say that their body "wasn't ready for puberty". It's just that their small stature would have a negative impact on their SOCIAL life, because today's societies favor the tall or "average" height people. It's not a health problem. It's a social problem.

Wow. You just made that shit up

The controversy is mostly about transgenders kids, for political/societal reasons.

Children health aren't political issue

Even then it looks like possible side effects risks are the same as for any medication taken long term.

Exactly. Then why the fuck do everyone suggest puberty blockers to any case of kid/teenager that slightly question their gender?

Personally, I think puberty blockers are safe and useful in a lot of cases that don't involve gender questions, so banning them is a bad idea.

Agreed

Each case is different and blanket statements and decisions can affect some people's life adversely.

Tell that to people that will literally supplies teenagers with black market puberty blockers without considering the side effects. You talk about blanket statement and decision, well we aren't the one doing it

 

[italianspy]

Really? Using that in the first move? Weak lol. So saying the truth means transphobic and makes you a terfs? Lol, lmao even.

you're literally leaving dozens of comments and specifically only arguing with people who seem to support trans rights. Just because your parents didn't give you any attention while growing up doesn't mean you have to take scraps by starting fights with strangers on a manga forum

 

[Sonaldo]

you're literally leaving dozens of comments and specifically only arguing with people who seem to support trans rights.

Thanks for stalking me lol

Just because your parents didn't give you any attention while growing up doesn't mean you have to take scraps by starting fights with strangers on a manga forum

Giving opinions and stating facts is transphobic now lmao. You people are allergic to the truth and discussions. Sorry kid but that's not how the world works. Maybe go back to your echo chamber if you want your views constantly validated lol

Edit: lmao you're the dumbo that screamed misinformation then shut up when people asked what the misinformation is

 

[italianspy]

Thanks for stalking me lol

Giving opinions and stating facts is transphobic now lmao. You people are allergic to the truth and discussions. Sorry kid but that's not how the world works. Maybe go back to your echo chamber if you want your views constantly validated lol

Edit: lmao you're the dumbo that screamed misinformation then shut up when people asked what the misinformation is

I left 2 comments... I don't live on these boards. if you want to know what the misinformation is, it's the fact the mom could "tell that the whole skeleton was different" (this is just completely false, there's only minor differences in the pelvis between adults of each sex, but there especially wouldn't be a difference for a pubescent body). It's the fact that GRS got simplified into "chopping off the penis". it's the fact that there are many, many steps and options that can be taken before even considering GRS that don't get mentioned at all. But I know you're just gonna deny any facts I put in front of you and pretend that hating on trans people isn't transphobic as long as you pretend you're being factually correct and not willfully misinterpreting data and people's experiences

 

[Sonaldo]

if you want to know what the misinformation is, it's the fact the mom could "tell that the whole skeleton was different" (this is just completely false, there's only minor differences in the pelvis between adults of each sex, but there especially wouldn't be a difference for a pubescent body).

This is the actual misinformation lmao 🤣. "Minor" difference in the pelvis lol. And no, there's a lot more than that when comparing male and female skeleton bozo. And no, this difference would still be present in pubescent body. Stop lying 🤥

It's the fact that GRS got simplified into "chopping off the penis".

Yes it is. Stop lying

it's the fact that there are many, many steps and options that can be taken before even considering GRS that don't get mentioned at all.

And all that is supposed to end with GRS.

But I know you're just gonna deny any facts I put in front of you

You're not putting any facts lol. You're literally saying shit without any proof whatsoever. Hell, you even said there's a minor difference in the pelvis of male and female lmao 🤣. You're making shit up, simple as that

and pretend that hating on trans people isn't transphobic

Nobody is hating transpeople lol. Is stating facts with references hating now? Are you people allergic to the truth?

as long as you pretend

You're the only one pretending bozo

you're being factually correct and not willfully misinterpreting data and people's experiences

Misinterpreting lmao 🤣. Keep making things up dude. That's all you people are good at. Making things up, pretending they're true and get offended when other people proves their not

 

[italianspy]

Just for the sake of anyone who's gonna stumble upon this forum in the future, without quoting a certain someone and sending them a notification, I'm going to source all of the claims I made in the previous post.

Article from 2015 in the Journal Anthropology about the difficulty of sexing skeletons, where they took 20 skeletons of various origins and tried determining their sex using 15 different methods (both metric and morphological) and found that not a single skeleton had the same sex using every method: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1155/2015/908535

Article from the National Library of Medicine showing that some GRS, for specifically penile inversion in this case, doesn't chop anything off and instead rearranges tissue that is already there into a new shape: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9126509/

Study from the National Library of Medicine saying that only around 4~13% get bottom surgery (combining men and women) (I'm talking specifically about bottom surgery and not including top surgery since that's not what the manga is about): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314/

I'll leave it up to the reader to determine if someone denying every single one of these well established scientific and medical facts is being transphobic or not

 

[Blaze_Rod]

Someone thinks they are being sneaky in this thread. I summon thee, bringer of popcorn.

 

[Sonaldo]

Article from 2015 in the Journal Anthropology about the difficulty of sexing skeletons, where they took 20 skeletons of various origins and tried determining their sex using 15 different methods (both metric and morphological) and found that not a single skeleton had the same sex using every method: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1155/2015/908535

20? Lmfao bro Google sample size please 😭. Also Google sexual dimorphism please. Like that's actually basic biology and your cherrypicked research with biased subject and abysmally low sample size won't disprove that lmao 🤣

Stop denying science
Stop denying science

Article from the National Library of Medicine showing that some GRS, for specifically penile inversion in this case, doesn't chop anything off and instead rearranges tissue that is already there into a new shape: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9126509/

That doesn't make it better lol 😂. And some, not all. So cutting your penis is still a valid description bozo

Study from the National Library of Medicine saying that only around 4~13% get bottom surgery (combining men and women) (I'm talking specifically about bottom surgery and not including top surgery since that's not what the manga is about): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626314/

And the sample size please? Also the study literally have a limitation section where they actually told us how this study is unreliable lol 😂. Do you actually read the things you linked bozo?

I'll leave it up to the reader to determine if someone denying every single one of these well established scientific and medical facts is being transphobic or not

Lmfao. Bro what about you try tagging me so we can engage together? Like I said previously, you people are allergic to the truth and having your opinions disguised as facts challenged. I'm pretty sure non biases readers can make their own conclusion. You're an actual science denier lol

 

[Sonaldo]

Someone thinks they are being sneaky in this thread. I summon thee, bringer of popcorn.

Thanks for the heads up dude. Won't be surprised if that science denier already blocked me lol 😂

 

[Blaze_Rod]

This manga does generate surprising amount of drama in the comments.

 

[Mussthemoose]

makes me wonder if we'll meet any actual trans ppl in the story. if not gender non conforming or crossdressers, because dysphoria aside there's some really good makeup and tuck jobs for ppl who look "convincing" without using hrt/surgery/etc

b/c with the 'comedy' tag i'd be expecting at least one throwaway joke/page like "he got to have a female body outta all ppl, i'm jealous" if not some ppl taking advantage of the situation and becoming an 'influencer' that decided to stay that way versus the vid they watched on the person who changed back

I'm sure it was likely answered by others by now, but we saw earlier in the series the actress who changed the type of style they did after having it happen, and the model who got more people following after changing. Less so an 'influencer' thing though and more like some people who continued their same style of stuff and seemed to get popularity from it. The model in particular felt a bit like they were making a bit of a joke on "oh hey for some reason they got more popular after changing!" like it'd be unexpected. Honestly though the comedy tag goes all over the place. The adams apple mistranslated bit had me fucking wheezing.

 

[Mussthemoose]

Making a proper review from what I've caught up on. I explained it to my friend as ""my god, this is the level of understanding of gender and how people will react and sometimes be weird about it that would get you crucified on tumblr""

Based on the comments, this holds pretty true. I'm going to be honest if it wasn't for my deep love of guilty pleasure with GB stuff I'd have maybe passed over this, and so rare it's a girl becoming a guy which is a whole new thing! I came into it and we got hit with some of the 'haha dick gags' and I honestly thought it was mostly going to be some funny exaggerated bits with overblown characters and then...wow!

We got hit with gender shit, we got hit with trans allegories, we got hit with outright trans shit. We got to see a ton of various experiences intersecting and clashing and seeing how these clash together in...kinda realistic ways! Like yeah sure the world DOES ask you to do a bit of buy in with the premise but like, no more than we get asked to when we are told to believe in a unique fantasy element like aliens are real and want to invade us. Getting hung up on it wouldn't help the story and it realizes that, and instead focuses entirely on the characters of the world and this story and how it affects them! Which speaking of, wow!

The characters are genuinely written well and believable. Even when people are more outlandish or doing wild things, you can find the threads that make you understand why they act that way very soon in the story or at least go "okay yeah fair, that must be why they act that way!" Sometimes that means that someone acts weird. Sometimes they act in a way that makes us the reader uncomfortable, or might even make a character uncomfortable! Sometimes there is a touching moment intersecting a funny joke gag because while it's unrealistic to happen in real life, we have control of the timing in this and we can use it for comedy purposes! So the characters, while they can have their moment, all feel like real, likeable people for different reasons.

Is the way the story handles the aspects of gender? Fuck no! Is the way the story handles aspects of gender something that feels, when it's touched upon truly, realistic? Yes! Because it's an entire clusterfuck of different experiences and people reacting to it. Yeah, some people roll with it and just vibe with their new gender, a lot seem to! Then some people like our protagonist are trying their best to go back to the gender they originally had and want to keep. All these people who are making these decisions have different reasons for it. They have different wants and desires or sometimes the same wants and desires but with different limits on what they'll do for it. Chapter 11 showed that extremely well with the video! Is it the protagonists fault this is such a heavy thing to broach, a harsh reality to actually face in the face of the limitations of our technology to reverse this sex change disorder? Not at all! And the fact they weren't ready to face that reality isn't their fault either, because sometimes life is just harder to go down if you pick a certain path you really desire!

I honestly recommend this one because once you do get past the first level of cliche discomfort, you quickly realize how much is put into the writing and characters, and how sometimes you'll find out that yeah, people will react in ways that can make us the reader uncomfortable. That's not a bad thing though! In this case it was refreshing to feel uncomfortable and realize it wasn't because a joke had been made at horrific expense. It was because people were acting in a way that felt uncomfortable and...honestly, yeah. That's life, and good on the writer for taking the plunge and the risk to write characters like this. 9/10 at time of review.