Yajin Tensei: Karate Survivor in Another World - Vol. 10 Ch. 60 - Emden of the Green Underworld Guild

[Solipsist]

And that does not feel real? If anything it's the realistic approach. He may be a more capable fighter than anyone in that town, but what does that matter, when he has 3 powerful organisations aiming for him? Only insane power fantasies would make it so that he has any chance in hell to hold his own agaisnt hundrets, if not thousands of people...

No, that does not feel real. That's as real as DBZ's power-scaling constantly going off the rails.
I.E: At first, just being able to fly is holy-shit levels of amazing, then being able to fire ki blasts. Fast forward a few seasons later, blowing up a galaxy is considered normal (in Brolly's movie, they mentioned that "some galaxies just poofed away", later verified that Broly literaly destroyed galaxies).

It'd feel real, if from the start, the MC would encounter extremely high-leveled and influential individuals, and if the MC would still appear powerful to most people, to show that him being level 20+ is not a fucking joke.
Instead, we're in a situation where the MC ever-so-conveniently started in Beginner Land, where everyone are low-leveled, and then "level 15 is considered the peak for 90% of ALL ADVENTURERS" -- and after he became the top 10% of ALL ADVENTURERS, he encountered a fucking random fisherman that was higher level than he is, and then kept meeting more and more powerful individuals, as if they didn't exist beforehand.
I.E: The entire power-structure of the world is entirely contrived.

It is also entirely contrived that all-major powers are gunning for the MC, threatening him, other than, you know, THE ADVENTURER'S GUILD? Why is he not receiving any protection from them, being a high-value member? Why are they allowing him to be poached off and threatened? What kind of a piece of shit guild is that? That's nonsense created by the author to generate infinite conflict for the MC. The story's structure is exactly like a Chinese Wuxia.

 

[finalm]

No, that does not feel real. That's as real as DBZ's power-scaling constantly going off the rails.
I.E: At first, just being able to fly is holy-shit levels of amazing, then being able to fire ki blasts. Fast forward a few seasons later, blowing up a galaxy is considered normal (in Brolly's movie, they mentioned that "some galaxies just poofed away", later verified that Broly literaly destroyed galaxies).

What are you even talking about here?

It'd feel real, if from the start, the MC would encounter extremely high-leveled and influential individuals, and if the MC would still appear powerful to most people, to show that him being level 20+ is not a fucking joke.
Instead, we're in a situation where the MC ever-so-conveniently started in Beginner Land, where everyone are low-leveled, and then "level 15 is considered the peak for 90% of ALL ADVENTURERS" -- and after he became the top 10% of ALL ADVENTURERS, he encountered a fucking random fisherman that was higher level than he is, and then kept meeting more and more powerful individuals, as if they didn't exist beforehand.
I.E: The entire power-structure of the world is entirely contrived.

That's just storytelling, man. If you're interested in reading how a begginer ran into a brick wall and died, more power to you, otherwise it's kind of necessary to somewhat scale the world to him or you'd get one of those mangas where the MC unwittingly kills something way beyond him, powers up to insane levels and then it's just a gag manga. In any case, the "power levels" here are portrayed in a way that while a higher level opponent is incredibly dangerous, the lower levels are still very much a threat to him if they know how to fight. Very much not like DBZ.

It is also entirely contrived that all-major powers are gunning for the MC, threatening him, other than, you know, THE ADVENTURER'S GUILD? Why is he not receiving any protection from them, being a high-value member? Why are they allowing him to be poached off and threatened? What kind of a piece of shit guild is that? That's nonsense created by the author to generate infinite conflict for the MC. The story's structure is exactly like a Chinese Wuxia.

As already established, he is not seen as "high value" beyond what he has or knows about, which the organisation would rather extract from him than bargain for. Is this a particularily smart way to operate? No, but it does have parallels with how commoners were treated in feudal times. If you, dared to demand better treatment from those seeing themselves as your betters, you'd see the same development.

 

[Solipsist]

What are you even talking about here?

I am ridiculing the way the powerups in this story works, as if the moment the MC finds a new power, a villain of matching power has to spawn into existence to become a fitting challenge, ad nauseam, to the point that the power-scaling no longer makes any sense.

That's just storytelling, man. If you're interested in reading how a begginer ran into a brick wall and died, more power to you, otherwise it's kind of necessary to somewhat scale the world to him or you'd get one of those mangas where the MC unwittingly kills something way beyond him, powers up to insane levels and then it's just a gag manga. In any case, the "power levels" here are portrayed in a way that while a higher level opponent is incredibly dangerous, the lower levels are still very much a threat to him if they know how to fight. Very much not like DBZ.

Yes, and no.

Yes, it's preferable that a story like this, will have enough wiggle-room for the MC to grow, and have bigger ponds for him to swim at.

No, it makes no sense that the world grows around the MC, like some sort of level-balancing where if you're level 100, a regular sheep becomes level 100 as well. That's not good storytelling.

In a proper story, the MC would have landed in a relatively weak area (god's service), but the narrative would still point out that there's a whole realm above the MC, that he can strive towards.
In the outlaw city, level 15 was lauded as this massive ceiling, that if you can cross it, you'd make it in life, since the massive majority cannot.
The moment the MC crossed that ceiling, we keep finding out regular guards are level 25, some random fisherman is level 25.
Soon, the next city the MC will visit, will have level 30 children because the MC is level 30.

TLDR: This story comes across to me as if the author just came up with the world-building and power-balancing as he wrote it, and did not think a smidgen of an arc ahead. As such, we ended up with: "beyond level 15 is fucking holy shit --> actually no level 25 is baby crap and is completely common, what's the big deal..?".
This is shounen power-scaling 101, and it's not a good thing.

As already established, he is not seen as "high value" beyond what he has or knows about, which the organisation would rather extract from him than bargain for. Is this a particularily smart way to operate? No, but it does have parallels with how commoners were treated in feudal times. If you, dared to demand better treatment from those seeing themselves as your betters, you'd see the same development.

1. The very fact that the narrative has so little screen-time with the Guild is odd, almost as if to ignore talking about this issue.
2. It was not "established", not in my eyes. The first contact with the guild was in an outlaw city, which didn't expect any proper members. This is not the same case.
3. Considering we saw how 2 guilds personally trying to recruit the MC, it's beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's weird for the adventurers' guild to ignore the MC, if not at least from the perspective of: "If you're not with us, you're against us". And preventing him from him "against us", means protecting him. Like it or not, narratively, the MC became a major player in the city FAST, and the way the Guild ignores him, to me, comes across as contrived. The parallels of feudal times are moot, imo, because, again: Adventurers' Guild. Their members are commoners. The power-structure of the world is orbitting around levels as much pedigree. If the Guild would ignore promising members like Yajin left and right, they'd have no members.

I wouldn't be having this issue, if it was established ahead of time, that this particular adventurers' guild is run by an incompetent fool, and the adventurers suffer for it, but it remains afloat because of the guild master's strong background and backing -- or if the guild had an ace-party, that felt threatened by the MC, so they sabotage his ability to get support from the guild. I'd even argue that'd be much more interesting of a development, rather than just.....Ignore the guild completely, and just assume it's normal for all other factions to ogle the MC, rather than the guild he's already registered with.

I already wrote a fuckton, sorry this is getting so long-winded. I get that this story, obviously, takes strong inspiration from medieval societies, and it plays them off very well most of the time -- but what I mentioned, how the MC is always the underdog, just so easily comes across as a narrative choice, rather than a reflection of the setting. This is the point I am trying to dog so hard here.

 

[finalm]

I am ridiculing the way the powerups in this story works, as if the moment the MC finds a new power, a villain of matching power has to spawn into existence to become a fitting challenge, ad nauseam, to the point that the power-scaling no longer makes any sense.

Yes, and no.

Yes, it's preferable that a story like this, will have enough wiggle-room for the MC to grow, and have bigger ponds for him to swim at.

No, it makes no sense that the world grows around the MC, like some sort of level-balancing where if you're level 100, a regular sheep becomes level 100 as well. That's not good storytelling.

In a proper story, the MC would have landed in a relatively weak area (god's service), but the narrative would still point out that there's a whole realm above the MC, that he can strive towards.
In the outlaw city, level 15 was lauded as this massive ceiling, that if you can cross it, you'd make it in life, since the massive majority cannot.
The moment the MC crossed that ceiling, we keep finding out regular guards are level 25, some random fisherman is level 25.
Soon, the next city the MC will visit, will have level 30 children because the MC is level 30.

I feel you are exaggerating to an extreme amount here. The only real "somehow, there's always someone stronger" moment was with the craftsman, who just happens to be OP (and everything relating to him, the supposed armor included is nonsensical). The fisherman had a narrative reason for being what he was (maybe not the best one, but still). As for the rest, do notice that the threat usually came from numbers rather than raw power. In these circumstanes the levels mean little, since all involved are at risk and take punishment from the engagements.

1. The very fact that the narrative has so little screen-time with the Guild is odd, almost as if to ignore talking about this issue.
2. It was not "established", not in my eyes. The first contact with the guild was in an outlaw city, which didn't expect any proper members. This is not the same case.
3. Considering we saw how 2 guilds personally trying to recruit the MC, it's beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's weird for the adventurers' guild to ignore the MC, if not at least from the perspective of: "If you're not with us, you're against us". And preventing him from him "against us", means protecting him. Like it or not, narratively, the MC became a major player in the city FAST, and the way the Guild ignores him, to me, comes across as contrived. The parallels of feudal times are moot, imo, because, again: Adventurers' Guild. Their members are commoners. The power-structure of the world is orbitting around levels as much pedigree. If the Guild would ignore promising members like Yajin left and right, they'd have no members.

I wouldn't be having this issue, if it was established ahead of time, that this particular adventurers' guild is run by an incompetent fool, and the adventurers suffer for it, but it remains afloat because of the guild master's strong background and backing -- or if the guild had an ace-party, that felt threatened by the MC, so they sabotage his ability to get support from the guild. I'd even argue that'd be much more interesting of a development, rather than just.....Ignore the guild completely, and just assume it's normal for all other factions to ogle the MC, rather than the guild he's already registered with.

"Outlaw city" or not, if the guild operates there, then they must have proper members with whom they work with. This is fundamental to the very notion of a guild and even if it weren't, it's not like that was some massive metropolis that sees new adventurers roll in on the daily to exploit. The only reasonable conclusion is that he was simply not valued that much.

Major player? How exactly? He represents some monetary value, sure but it's not like he's some sort of irreplacable pioneer. Real world guilds were also organisations for commoners, but they very much put their nose up at most people, no matter how talented. In fact, getting apprenticeships was challenging, unless you knew the right people. These sorts of organizations work by volume and assume there's always more fish in the sea, especially when they have monopolies on operating in a given region. You are thinking too much in terms of modern competition between marketshare-hungry companies trying to get any advantage over each other. Think large, crusty, complacent organizations that can't be arsed most of the time. They are the filter-feeders, happy to grab a nice catch, but if it slips or it's too much effort, then no biggie. This is what the guilds were, since the very reason for their existence was to corner the market.

 

[Solipsist]

I feel you are exaggerating to an extreme amount here. The only real "somehow, there's always someone stronger" moment was with the craftsman, who just happens to be OP (and everything relating to him, the supposed armor included is nonsensical). The fisherman had a narrative reason for being what he was (maybe not the best one, but still). As for the rest, do notice that the threat usually came from numbers rather than raw power. In these circumstanes the levels mean little, since all involved are at risk and take punishment from the engagements.

My main point was more about the world-building. The power structure.
Rather than the challenges the MC faces, I more tried to convey that the author didn't seem to really think ahead of what exists, and doesn't exist, power-wise in the story.
If it's not around the MC, it doesn't exist, and it will only exist the moment the author has to think how to make the MC stronger, to spawn competent conflict for the MC's new powers.
This is how this story comes across to me.

To give an example, a relatively popular Xianxia novel named Coiling Dragon (and I am giving a xianxia specifically, because they're not....The best, exactly) -- pretty much starts off with having 2 of the strongest possible powers in their world, clash in front of the MC. To a devastating degree to everything around them.

That sent a clear message to the readers and the MC: The ceiling? That's how it looks like, that's the top. But that's also what can be achieved in that world, something to expect.
And you remember that the entire journey, that no matter how strong the MC gets: the ceiling is there, and it's both a goal and something to fear.

"Outlaw city" or not, if the guild operates there, then they must have proper members with whom they work with. This is fundamental to the very notion of a guild and even if it weren't, it's not like that was some massive metropolis that sees new adventurers roll in on the daily to exploit. The only reasonable conclusion is that he was simply not valued that much.

I actually agree, what you're saying makes sense.
What bothers me, however, is that every other faction but the adventurers' guild receive any spot in the narrative, as if there's just nothing more to say. As if the Guild is basically just a "Come here to get work", and literally nothing more than that --- but without actually making it a big part of the narrative. It's just in the background.
And in this specific arc, we were told that the Guild is 1 of the 3 major powers of the city, so it's not just this "Hello Work" place, but an actual power house.
And if this power-house decided that the MC is not worth anything to curry his favor (even though literally every other faction did take note of him?) -- I merely wish it'd be a part of the narrative.

I think what I am saying makes sense (its senseless for the guild to ignore Yajin, while everyone else doesn't) -- but what you're saying makes sense too (organizations can easily not care about drifters, and might be improperly run).

I think we can agree, that the main issue here, is that it's just us talking about it, and it's not depicted enough in the manga, as if "not receiving the proper support of the guild I am a part of, and I'm a rare level 20+ person who just completed impossible quests" is not a really good point to explore with the Guild?
I guess this replies to your other chunk of the comment, so I'll leave it like that.

 

[finalm]

My main point was more about the world-building. The power structure.
Rather than the challenges the MC faces, I more tried to convey that the author didn't seem to really think ahead of what exists, and doesn't exist, power-wise in the story.
If it's not around the MC, it doesn't exist, and it will only exist the moment the author has to think how to make the MC stronger, to spawn competent conflict for the MC's new powers.
This is how this story comes across to me.

To give an example, a relatively popular Xianxia novel named Coiling Dragon (and I am giving a xianxia specifically, because they're not....The best, exactly) -- pretty much starts off with having 2 of the strongest possible powers in their world, clash in front of the MC. To a devastating degree to everything around them.

That sent a clear message to the readers and the MC: The ceiling? That's how it looks like, that's the top. But that's also what can be achieved in that world, something to expect.
And you remember that the entire journey, that no matter how strong the MC gets: the ceiling is there, and it's both a goal and something to fear.

The problem with such "ceilings" is that pretty much no author can plan his whole story well enough not to end up making it a moving one. Then it really becomes absurd. The modern versions of Dragon Ball come to mind and that series always had similar issues. In general, I don't think it's necessary to pre-establish what is and isn't possible, merely that it follows a logical progression. Though I do understand that the MC constantly being forced into FUBAR situations and having to flee is getting old. It kind of overplays the trope of him being a constant outcast, no matter how well things are going.

All in all, your point about things only existing in front of the MC is justifiable in my view. The whole story is structured so that it constantly follows him, we don't really get any world-building without him witnessing it first. There's talk about levels and stuff (and it would be better if the concept was scrapped altogether IMO), but not much actual focus around that, to be honest. Notice that when he thinks about upping his surviability, he does not really think about levels or any other otherworldly concepts, but about strategy, equipment, stamina. etc. It does not seem frivolous.

I actually agree, what you're saying makes sense.
What bothers me, however, is that every other faction but the adventurers' guild receive any spot in the narrative, as if there's just nothing more to say. As if the Guild is basically just a "Come here to get work", and literally nothing more than that --- but without actually making it a big part of the narrative. It's just in the background.
And in this specific arc, we were told that the Guild is 1 of the 3 major powers of the city, so it's not just this "Hello Work" place, but an actual power house.
And if this power-house decided that the MC is not worth anything to curry his favor (even though literally every other faction did take note of him?) -- I merely wish it'd be a part of the narrative.

I think what I am saying makes sense (its senseless for the guild to ignore Yajin, while everyone else doesn't) -- but what you're saying makes sense too (organizations can easily not care about drifters, and might be improperly run).

I think we can agree, that the main issue here, is that it's just us talking about it, and it's not depicted enough in the manga, as if "not receiving the proper support of the guild I am a part of, and I'm a rare level 20+ person who just completed impossible quests" is not a really good point to explore with the Guild?
I guess this replies to your other chunk of the comment, so I'll leave it like that.

I just want to add that whether or not the guild is a "powerhouse" is not really established. They are considered #3 but that's out of 3. In short, it seems they are the only other organization with any capability to exert force between the army and organized crime there.

 

[OpN]

And that does not feel real? If anything it's the realistic approach. He may be a more capable fighter than anyone in that town, but what does that matter, when he has 3 powerful organisations aiming for him? Only insane power fantasies would make it so that he has any chance in hell to hold his own agaisnt hundrets, if not thousands of people...

I don't think it's insane power fantasies that build a world the reader can understand but that the character doesn't. It's rather nice when an author builds out or reveals more of their world and characters through lore tidbits and preambles that our character wouldn't be aware of. Our understanding being at the same level as a character experiencing the life around him makes the world feel like we're seeing it through a small lens. We're not given additional context, and so when things happen they happen for reasons both us and the character don't grasp. It's a way of story-telling that's unusual, and I can say for certain that I don't enjoy.

 

[finalm]

I don't think it's insane power fantasies that build a world the reader can understand but that the character doesn't. It's rather nice when an author builds out or reveals more of their world and characters through lore tidbits and preambles that our character wouldn't be aware of. Our understanding being at the same level as a character experiencing the life around him makes the world feel like we're seeing it through a small lens. We're not given additional context, and so when things happen they happen for reasons both us and the character don't grasp. It's a way of story-telling that's unusual, and I can say for certain that I don't enjoy.

I honestly don't know whether you're agreeing with me here or otherwise... I only got that you'd rather have a story with an omniscient narrator that throws lore at you, but what does that have to do with my point about the MC not wanting to take on impossible odds being realistic?

 

[OpN]

I honestly don't know whether you're agreeing with me here or otherwise... I only got that you'd rather have a story with an omniscient narrator that throws lore at you, but what does that have to do with my point about the MC not wanting to take on impossible odds being realistic?

Omniscient narrators are pretty comfortable, they're used in just about every story. I don't enjoy unreliable narrators as much as I enjoy being able use the rules of the world to ponder about possible futures. This story doesn't tell us rules to the world in advanced and it makes things less enjoyable because they feel less foreshadowed. There's still foreshadowing, but not as much as I wish there was.

I get it Finalm, you have reading comprehension issues. If you go back and read my first comment, you'll see my second point was a continuation of the first with rebuttals to your point which in my opinion went off topic and argued a different point that I wasn't making. I don't think I brought up power fantasy, though you used it as a strawman against me.

 

[finalm]

Omniscient narrators are pretty comfortable, they're used in just about every story. I don't enjoy unreliable narrators as much as I enjoy being able use the rules of the world to ponder about possible futures. This story doesn't tell us rules to the world in advanced and it makes things less enjoyable because they feel less foreshadowed. There's still foreshadowing, but not as much as I wish there was.

Okay...? Nothing to do with the topic or my question, but sure, why not?

I get it Finalm, you have reading comprehension issues. If you go back and read my first comment, you'll see my second point was a continuation of the first with rebuttals to your point which in my opinion went off topic and argued a different point that I wasn't making. I don't think I brought up power fantasy, though you used it as a strawman against me.

Oh dear... I'm sorry, you definetly don't seem to be all "in there", mentally speaking, but I still burst out laughing when I saw that "off topic" point. That was very insensitive of me, so I'll go reflect on it in a dark corner somewhere. Yeah, don't mind me!