Vinland Saga - Ch. 209 - Thousand Year Voyage Part 18

[Klordz]

I'm having trouble believing that this random guy had an actual ulfberht sword.

 

[DeOneChester]

The author could symbolically tell me he needs to suck a fat BBC to resolve this situation and I still wouldn't suspend my disbelief.

Suspend your disbelief in...the efficacy of diplomacy over arms races?

 

[Bearil]

You say that like this was his first time swinging a weapon. The fact that the knives and tomahawks he's used before were so blunt in comparison probably led him to swing a lot harder than he actually needed to. (Also, like, it's for drama: symbolism to show the escalation of the conflict.)

The closest weapon indians knew to use was a knife and wielding a knife and a longsword are two very different things considering that a knife is mostly used for stabbing, while the long sword was used for cutting even if its an all around weapon having also stabbing and crushing capabilities, not mentioning the different balance, weight and reach on the weapons compared to a knife

Some skill in a longsword can be translated into certain proficiency with a bastard sword because the weapons are very similar having a difference in range and weight but sharing most of their combat style while used one handed. Even then the person would be much better with their prefered weapon than with the other

 

[LordofAlI]

Dumbasses

 

[Gem-Bug]

You can like, quickly skim the comments and easily see who hated the Farm arc and are like, jerking to the violence coming back. Pathetic.

 

[nonexistent696969]

damn another sacrifices

 

[Theozilla]

Maybe but that's not how things looked for everyone else and regardless of his intent, he did protect Thorfinn and it still doesn't change the fact that the chief is the one who started the whole mess.

Miskwekepu'j wasn't/isn't the chief of the tribe that Plmk and Niskawaji'j belonged to, he was the village shaman. Gitpi was the chief and had desired good relations between the settlement and tribe. Miskwekepu'j attacking Thorfinn was definitely the material inciting source but wouldn't have succeeded if there hadn't been someone with the intentions of Ivar (a person who romanticizes the idea of war without having actually experienced it) who would eagely jump at the chance to grandstand under the excuse of "protecting" Thorfinn. Trying to downplay Ivar's respobsibility is ridiculous in the same way trying to do so for Miskwekepu'j would be.
So while it's certainly unfair and unjustified to try to put all (or even the majority of) the blame on Ivar for how events turned out (as the plague is definitely the biggest motivating factor), but it is also denying the reality of the narrative to try to claim that Ivar had zero meaningful significance/negative influence in how the narrative arrived at its current consequences, and/or that it is gauranteed everything was invevitably fated to turn out exactly as it has, even if Ivar hadn't existed.

I did forgot about it, is Ivar also a native from Iceland and Greenland?

Ivar is a native of Iceland who has had his farm taken over by Halfdan.

 

[Swagner]

The scale does matter, which is why a mass murderer will get a more severe sentence than someone who just killed one person.
The motivations do matter too, which is why someone killing in self-defense will get less of a punishment than someone who killed for pleasure.

You should read what you responded to more closely. The reason the Norse killed fewer people was because there were fewer Norse, not because they were less bloodthirsty than, say, the Aztecs. If a group of 1,000,000 kills 1,000 people, and a group of 1,000 kills 1, those two groups are exactly as proportionately violent as eachother; and the latter group would have committed the exact same atrocity had it been large enough to do so in the first place.

 

[Swagner]

Wonder how many retarded Thorfinn sloppers will be here defending his lack of a back bone forwards

God in heaven, do you have to bitch and moan in every chapter? You don't like the manga, then fuck off. Quit following it. Go upstairs and complain to your mom, we're tired of hearing it.

 

[mindlessBiped]

I never truly believed in the masses stupidity until I read this comment section. Holy shit most of you don't get the point at all. This story is not particularly complicated nor do you need a degree in literary analysis to get the point. Feels like for some the only literature they ever consumed were isekai

 

[Ahab19]

is this a joke or

I know it's not going to happen but would be better than his cuck arc.

 

[Blabladodo]

Miskwekepu'j wasn't/isn't the chief of the tribe that Plmk and Niskawaji'j belonged to, he was the village shaman. Gitpi was the chief and had desired good relations between the settlement and tribe. Miskwekepu'j attacking Thorfinn was definitely the material inciting source but wouldn't have succeeded if there hadn't been someone with the intentions of Ivar (a person who romanticizes the idea of war without having actually experienced it) who would eagely jump at the chance to grandstand under the excuse of "protecting" Thorfinn. Trying to downplay Ivar's respobsibility is ridiculous in the same way trying to do so for Miskwekepu'j would be.
So while it's certainly unfair and unjustified to try to put all (or even the majority of) the blame on Ivar for how events turned out (as the plague is definitely the biggest motivating factor), but it is also denying the reality of the narrative to try to claim that Ivar had zero meaningful significance/negative influence in how the narrative arrived at its current consequences, and/or that it is gauranteed everything was invevitably fated to turn out exactly as it has, even if Ivar hadn't existed.

Thanks for the reminder about the "chief" actually being a shaman, it still doesn't change the fact that he has a great deal of influence since he can summon warriors and probably can't be dismissed easily even by the actual chief since he wield actual magic.
Ivar is most certainly an oppotunist but as said previously, you need to take into account how everyone else saw the scene, hence the protector angle.
And you still eluded my question: how should a leader react when someone tried to assassinate him?

and/or that it is gauranteed everything was invevitably fated to turn out exactly as it has, even if Ivar hadn't existed.

I'll just remind you that the plague is "only" a disease amongst many and that the odds that the Lnu get yet another epidemic from another disease in an hypothetic peaceful scenario is far from being null. Hell, the opposite could happen with the Nords getting an epidemic from the Lnu.
For that reason, I'd say the shaman was actually right in wanting the Nords to go, however the methods he used were... not good to say the least.

Ivar is a native of Iceland who has had his farm taken over by Halfdan.

Thanks.

 

[Blabladodo]

You should read what you responded to more closely. The reason the Norse killed fewer people was because there were fewer Norse, not because they were less bloodthirsty than, say, the Aztecs. If a group of 1,000,000 kills 1,000 people, and a group of 1,000 kills 1, those two groups are exactly as proportionately violent as eachother; and the latter group would have committed the exact same atrocity had it been large enough to do so in the first place.

We don't see human sacrifice from the Nords anywhere in the manga and the story happen in a period of time where christianism is becoming the dominant religion in the region.
Meanwhile, at the same period of time the mesoamerican were still doing human sacrifices and will continue to do so until they meet the conquistador.
I can also bring moral relativism into the fray by saying that what you consider an atrocity by today's standards was the norm for an aztec and that not sacrifying people would be the atrocity for them.

and the latter group would have committed the exact same atrocity had it been large enough to do so in the first place.

Dunno, if the ritual only ask for 1 sacrifice a month for example, the number of people sacrified doesn't change regardless of population.

If a group of 1,000,000 kills 1,000 people, and a group of 1,000 kills 1, those two groups are exactly as proportionately violent as eachother;

Good job turning humans lives into statistics btw

 

[Theozilla]

Thanks for the reminder about the "chief" actually being a shaman, it still doesn't change the fact that he has a great deal of influence since he can summon warriors and probably can't be dismissed easily even by the actual chief since he wield actual magic.
Ivar is most certainly an opportunist but as said previously, you need to take into account how everyone else saw the scene, hence the protector angle.

Yes, I know that Ivar was able to get other people to perceive that he was "protecting" Thorfinn, that's was part of the point of his grandstanding, and further illustrates the point that Ivar did have meaningful significance/negative influence in how the narrative arrived at its current consequences.

I'll just remind you that the plague is "only" a disease amongst many and that the odds that the Lnu get yet another epidemic from another disease in an hypothetical peaceful scenario is far from being null. Hell, the opposite could happen with the Nords getting an epidemic from the Lnu.
For that reason, I'd say the shaman was actually right in wanting the Nords to go, however the methods he used were... not good to say the least.

My point doesn't have to do with the current epidemic the Lnu are experiencing being specifically the plague, you're exactly right any disease could have caused an epidemic. I am not arguing that the Lnu desiring the Vinland settlers leaves to leave could have likely been avoided if Ivar hadn't existed, what I am talking about is the specific current consequences where Thorfinn's diplomacy (of getting the allied tribes to agree to give the Vinland settlement until spring to leave) failing and the current raiders (who are specifically after Ivar's sword) could have possibly been avoided and/or turned out differently if Ivar hadn't been a factor.

 

[Blabladodo]

Yes, I know that Ivar was able to get other people to perceive that he was "protecting" Thorfinn, that's was part of the point of his grandstanding, and further illustrates the point that Ivar did have meaningful significance/negative influence in how the narrative arrived at its current consequences.

Alright, I'll concede on that point, I'll just conclude by saying that Ivar gets a lot of hate compared to the shaman despite the latter starting the whole thing. I guess it only show that the author is good a directing the emotions of a reader.

My point doesn't have to do with the current epidemic the Lnu are experiencing being specifically the plague, you're exactly right any disease could have caused an epidemic. I am not arguing that the Lnu desiring the Vinland settlers leaves to leave could have likely been avoided if Ivar hadn't existed, what I am talking about is the specific current consequences where Thorfinn's diplomacy (of getting the allied tribes to agree to give the Vinland settlement until spring to leave) failing

Dunno, as said previosuly, even if you delete Ivar and the sword from the story, the shaman would still try to attack Thorfinn which is what started the current events.

and the current raiders (who are specifically after Ivar's sword) could have possibly been avoided and/or turned out differently if Ivar hadn't been a factor.

Thorfinn is being chased by warriors who don't want the sword but rather the tools the Nords are using.
We don't even know if the current raid on the village could have been avoided without the sword because the leader is currently framed as someone who kill for fun, which is also why he backed off when he met his match.
Chances are that he would have still attacked the village to get the loot before the others.

 

[Swagner]

We don't see human sacrifice from the Nords anywhere in the manga

Thanks for admitting that you were willing to drag in people not in the manga (mesoamericans) when you could use it to scream "peace bad!" but are willing to ignore historical context when it undercuts your argument.

Good job turning humans lives into statistics btw

"Basic math is bad! Numbers should only be used to demonize people I've already decided are savages, not for introspection!!1!"

 

[Blabladodo]

Thanks for admitting that you were willing to drag in people not in the manga (mesoamericans) when you could use it to scream "peace bad!" but are willing to ignore historical context when it undercuts your argument.

Where did I say that?
My original statement was about how Thorfinn ideals would hold up against a civilization that does the exact opposite.

"Basic math is bad!

So at which % does something become acceptable or not?

Numbers should only be used to demonize people I've already decided are savages, not for introspection!!1!"

I'm saying that the aztec had human sacrifice as part of their culture.
You're the one saying that human sacrifice is an atrocity and hence labelling them as savage.

 

[Theozilla]

Alright, I'll concede on that point, I'll just conclude by saying that Ivar gets a lot of hate compared to the shaman despite the latter starting the whole thing. I guess it only show that the author is good a directing the emotions of a reader.

Ivar gets more hate because his motivations and characterization (namely Ivar being an ignorant guy who romanticizes war) compared to the shaman (a misguided individual resorting to extremes) character are far less sympathetic.

Dunno, as said previosuly, even if you delete Ivar and the sword from the story, the shaman would still try to attack Thorfinn which is what started the current events.

The Shaman would still have attacked Thorfinn sure, but without Ivar and his sword being there, the shaman wouldn’t have had his hand lopped off with the sword (and as Hild said would have likely been disabled and defeated with little injury) which as Thorfinn himself had noted was the bigger impact in the souring of relations than the fact the shaman attacked him (like we literally know the main point of the shaman’s plan was for someone like Ivar to grievously injur him, the attack on Thorfinn’s life was always just the means to it not the end goal). So Ivar’s role in that event can’t and shouldn’t be diminished/understated.

Thorfinn is being chased by warriors who don't want the sword but rather the tools the Nords are using.

Ivar’s sword is still emblematic of the Norse tools in general. And the greater point is that if it wasn’t for Ivar’s contributions it’s possible that Thorfinn and co. wouldn’t have ended up being chased by warriors in the first place.

We don't even know if the current raid on the village could have been avoided without the sword because the leader is currently framed as someone who kill for fun, which is also why he backed off when he met his match.
Chances are that he would have still attacked the village to get the loot before the others.

The current leader being bloodthirsty still isn’t the main motivator of the current raid, which has explicitly been stated to have been primarily for getting the sword. Just because the leader Ga'aoqi valued his life over checking to see if the house Cordelia was guarding possibly had a sword, doesn’t change the fact that the reason he instigated his unauthorized raid was to find the sword. Trying to claim that Ga'aoqi and his raid would have still happened without Ivar and his sword existing is a weak argument.

 

[Blabladodo]

Ivar gets more hate because his motivations and characterization (namely Ivar being an ignorant guy who romanticizes war) compared to the shaman (a misguided individual resorting to extremes) character are far less sympathetic.

You don't often meet someone who can openly admit that he think ignorance is worse than being extreme. Ignorance is also a form of misguidance btw.

The Shaman would still have attacked Thorfinn sure, but without Ivar and his sword being there, the shaman wouldn’t have had his hand lopped off with the sword (and as Hild said would have likely been disabled and defeated with little injury) which as Thorfinn himself had noted was the bigger impact in the souring of relations than the fact the shaman attacked him (like we literally know the main point of the shaman’s plan was for someone like Ivar to grievously injur him, the attack on Thorfinn’s life was always just the means to it not the end goal). So Ivar’s role in that event can’t and shouldn’t be diminished/understated.

The shaman is trying to find a casus belli to summon warrior and attack the Nords, assuming he has the personality of a bully, he would just keep trying until someone snap and gets him injured... or not since the plague happens and he (rightfully) blame the Nords for that. Ivar "just" accelerated the process.
And now that you mention Hilde, Ivar's entire character could have been played by her since she has a crossbow, which is an even better weapon than a sword, main difference would be that she wouldn't overract like Ivar did but would still own a weapon that would attract unwanted attention.

Ivar’s sword is still emblematic of the Norse tools in general.

Sure but assuming a casus belli that allow the shaman to summon warriors, they wouldn't want to go back home without some sort of loot, sword or not, which is why Thorfinn is currently being chased.

And the greater point is that if it wasn’t for Ivar’s contributions it’s possible that Thorfinn and co. would have ended up being chased by warriors in the first place.

I'll assume there's a typo here because this is what I've been saying.

The current leader being bloodthirsty still isn’t the main motivator of the current raid, which has explicitly been stated to have been primarily for getting the sword. Just because the leader Ga'aoqi valued his life over checking to see if the house Cordelia was guarding possibly had a sword, doesn’t change the fact that the reason he instigated his unauthorized raid was to find the sword. Trying to claim that Ga'aoqi and his raid would have happened without Ivar and his sword existing is a weak argument.

Dunno, his character is up for interpretation and the way I see it is that he's not the kind of guy who can sit and listen to the old shaman for long while the others warriors were at least disciplined enough for that which is why I think he would still attack the village before anyone else.

 

[Malkraz]

You can like, quickly skim the comments and easily see who hated the Farm arc and are like, jerking to the violence coming back. Pathetic.

Farm arc is kino, the problem is everything that came immediately after it