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Chiyu Mahou no Machigatta Tsukaikata: Senjou wo Kakeru Kaifuku Youin - Vol. 8 Ch. 39.2
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@Superboi777 bruh wth you talking about sk47 is russian kalashnikov
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I didn't expect this outcome.
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@Kanashii @IceKatze Read again, she only does that when she is defending herself and not a single person died even then.
"summoning zombies, almost destroying the world by raising an evil dragon, stealing people's secrets through mind control, and turning people's friends against each other, "
1) Since when is summoning zombies an evil act? Do you even know what a zombie is? A Zombie is just an animated corpse. You can consider it amoral because you're violating tombs in the process, but evil?
2) No she didn't "almost destroy the world" stop being hyperbolic for no reason. She used the dragon to fight MC and ONLY MC, and she did so because she though she had him in control. She even bet her own life to stop the dragon herself
3)Oh what horror, she learned some secrets!!! And?
4) When did she do that exactly? Oh yeah to protect her secret, and once again only against MC, whom she was against at the time. And she does it because she doesn't like killing people.
"The notion that erasing someone's memories is a kindness is also super messed up, in a lot of different ways. But memories are one of the core fixtures of what makes a person who they are."
No it's not, once again you're exaggerating on the impact she is causing. She didn't wipe their memories out, she only removed the memories of herself from their minds, meaning, her actions have and will never change who people are at their core. You're trying to say that wiping any sort of memory has the same value but it doesn't.
Erasing the memories of being raped would allow a victim to live more peacefully, It wouldn't be remotely close to what you describe as an evil act.
As for you Kanashii:
"wasn't it said she was kidnapping travelers around the village, keeping them there for months or even years and finally releasing them after erasing their memories?"
Have you seen what she did to them? She merely made them tell their stories and leave, and she only "kidnapped" those who went against her. Go back to the first chapter of this arc, not everyone that went through that village got kidnapped, it's safe to say that if she managed to convince people to tell their stories willingly they entered and left the village with no issue.
She NEVER enslaved anyone.
She literally said that, that she only wanted to listen to the stories of the travellers. That she only manipulated the memories of the villagers to insert a false memory of her belonging in their midst. She only controlled the villagers to force MC to stay. To begin with the Zombies she summoned were only for adventurers to have a reason to visit the village. Every single thing she did, she did it out of loneliness.
You both seem to have a problem with the very nature of the actions itself rather than what she really did.
Something along the lines of, "Killing is always Wrong", but the one being killed is a mass murderer that has a machine gun and has the full intention on randomly murdering people on the street.
So, is killing people really that wrong in this situation?
The intent is worth far more than the action itself. Depending on situation even amoral actions can be the best alternative to solve a problematic situation. Or depending on results a bad action can easily be forgiven for having caused no damage. Which is the case here. She never caused any real damage to anyone, it doesn't matter that you hate the actions she used, if they didn't cause the damage you were expecting, are you really saying she still deserve the same punishment? "Defending the law for the sake of the law", Is this it?
"summoning zombies, almost destroying the world by raising an evil dragon, stealing people's secrets through mind control, and turning people's friends against each other, "
1) Since when is summoning zombies an evil act? Do you even know what a zombie is? A Zombie is just an animated corpse. You can consider it amoral because you're violating tombs in the process, but evil?
2) No she didn't "almost destroy the world" stop being hyperbolic for no reason. She used the dragon to fight MC and ONLY MC, and she did so because she though she had him in control. She even bet her own life to stop the dragon herself
3)Oh what horror, she learned some secrets!!! And?
4) When did she do that exactly? Oh yeah to protect her secret, and once again only against MC, whom she was against at the time. And she does it because she doesn't like killing people.
"The notion that erasing someone's memories is a kindness is also super messed up, in a lot of different ways. But memories are one of the core fixtures of what makes a person who they are."
No it's not, once again you're exaggerating on the impact she is causing. She didn't wipe their memories out, she only removed the memories of herself from their minds, meaning, her actions have and will never change who people are at their core. You're trying to say that wiping any sort of memory has the same value but it doesn't.
Erasing the memories of being raped would allow a victim to live more peacefully, It wouldn't be remotely close to what you describe as an evil act.
As for you Kanashii:
"wasn't it said she was kidnapping travelers around the village, keeping them there for months or even years and finally releasing them after erasing their memories?"
Have you seen what she did to them? She merely made them tell their stories and leave, and she only "kidnapped" those who went against her. Go back to the first chapter of this arc, not everyone that went through that village got kidnapped, it's safe to say that if she managed to convince people to tell their stories willingly they entered and left the village with no issue.
She NEVER enslaved anyone.
She literally said that, that she only wanted to listen to the stories of the travellers. That she only manipulated the memories of the villagers to insert a false memory of her belonging in their midst. She only controlled the villagers to force MC to stay. To begin with the Zombies she summoned were only for adventurers to have a reason to visit the village. Every single thing she did, she did it out of loneliness.
You both seem to have a problem with the very nature of the actions itself rather than what she really did.
Something along the lines of, "Killing is always Wrong", but the one being killed is a mass murderer that has a machine gun and has the full intention on randomly murdering people on the street.
So, is killing people really that wrong in this situation?
The intent is worth far more than the action itself. Depending on situation even amoral actions can be the best alternative to solve a problematic situation. Or depending on results a bad action can easily be forgiven for having caused no damage. Which is the case here. She never caused any real damage to anyone, it doesn't matter that you hate the actions she used, if they didn't cause the damage you were expecting, are you really saying she still deserve the same punishment? "Defending the law for the sake of the law", Is this it?
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I feel a deathflag for the village
@BloodySorcerer yep, that's the blue and orange morality I was talking about. She's lonely and trying to connect, her definition of right and wrong was just off.
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@Kitsune_Hellscythe
Well, even the draw style looks different to the cover, but i will give it a read, thank you.
Well, even the draw style looks different to the cover, but i will give it a read, thank you.
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@Kitsune_Hellscythe
Well, even the draw style looks different to the cover, but i will give it a read, thank you.
Well, even the draw style looks different to the cover, but i will give it a read, thank you.
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@manolito62 ;
The one in the middle is Anzu, shows up later in the series.
The one in the middle is Anzu, shows up later in the series.
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@BloodySorcerer It's hard to imagine people willingly stayed for years in the village to tell her stories. Instead, it's more plausible she charmed them like she tried to charm Usato at the first meeting or directly controlled them like Arc. They didn't have a choice. They could either stay there "willingly" as long as she wanted or be forced to stay by sorcery. How is it not kidnapping/slavery? Being forced to stay in the village and not having a right to decide about your life.Her loneliness isn't justification. Whatever you say she DID kidnapped people and forced them to do her bidding. Even if we ignore her past crimes, we ourselves saw her trying to kidnap Usato and his friends when they weren't willing to stay and even using charm on him before giving him a choice. It doesn't matter it didn't work out. She committed crimes and wasn't punished in any way. She didn't apologize. She didn't admit her wrongdoings to the people she controlled. She didn't give them a choice and arbitrarily messed with their memories again. Being forgotten as a punishment is a bullshit. The same goes for villagers forgetting her for supposedly their own sake.
I don't want to waste my time for explaining such obvious things. Messing with someone's memories isn't a way to atone for messing this person's memories. And if you want to count it as a punishment because being forgotten will make her lonely, then it doesn't make sense either. She is leaving the village and going to explore the world with her new friends. Now she's actually living her dream.
I don't want to waste my time for explaining such obvious things. Messing with someone's memories isn't a way to atone for messing this person's memories. And if you want to count it as a punishment because being forgotten will make her lonely, then it doesn't make sense either. She is leaving the village and going to explore the world with her new friends. Now she's actually living her dream.
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@Kanashii Like I said you're "Defending law for the sake of law"(this is a figure of speech, for those who are utterly incapable of noticing such things in written text).
"
Kidnapping is the unlawful transportation and confinement of a person against their will. She does not confine people, she charms people in wanting to stay of their own will. Which is not different from seducing someone(yes she only meddled with the memories of the people in the village and not the ones she "forced" to stay, aside from the selective removal of their memories of the period they stayed with her). And all of them returned safely.
As for Slavery, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with slavery. There is no punishment nor were the people treated like objects. People were charmed and willingly choose to stay on the village doing her bidding, it's exactly like Hypnosis.
There is nothing here she needs to be forgiven for when it comes to the villagers. You can make it point that she needs to ask forgiveness to the adventures she charmed, but a great portion of them were actually bandits. Adventurers, guards and Merchants being only a portion of the affected party. And obviously she has no way to apologize to them because they are probably not even close to the village. What she did wasn't anywhere as grave as you guys are trying to make it seem.
She had all the chances in the world to truly enslave their minds an make them do her bidding, expand her influence and take the nearby region. Treating them all as cattle and workforce. But she didn't do any of that, She inserted false memories of herself as being a villager, was pampered by the families and "befriended" the villagers, would buy books to pass time. And them charm travelers to tell her stories. That's it, that's all she did. She did train her necrromantic powers to raise zombies, but she didn't really do anything with those zombies. If anything she used the zombies to simulate an attack in order to grab the attention of adventurers, making it easy for her to meet new people. No one was ever truly harmed. Adventurers usually don't have families, so even though they disappeared for a while, there was no actual damage caused to their families ny their temporary disappearence.And bandits wel, if anyhing she should've killed those, as they probably went to the village to rob the inhabitants blind.
"
What crimes? How would anyone even regulate her powers, also she not even human to follow human law. If anything human law would condemn her for even existing, and she'd be murdered just like her parents.
Would you consider Hypnosis to be the same thing as kidnapping?
Kidnapping is the unlawful transportation and confinement of a person against their will. She does not confine people, she charms people in wanting to stay of their own will. Which is not different from seducing someone(yes she only meddled with the memories of the people in the village and not the ones she "forced" to stay, aside from the selective removal of their memories of the period they stayed with her). And all of them returned safely.
As for Slavery, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with slavery. There is no punishment nor were the people treated like objects. People were charmed and willingly choose to stay on the village doing her bidding, it's exactly like Hypnosis.
You see, that's the beauty of her powers, she didn't need to force anyone they stayed there "of their own volition". You may think there's not much difference between the two, but it is astronomically different. You can't charm people who are extremely against something. Before Usato came to the village she never had to resort to mind control. SHe did it with Usato because Usato was different from everyone else that came to the village before him.
But that's the problem, she didn't really do anything to the people in the village, all she did was implant memories of herself in their memories so that she could be treated as a normal inhabitant there, and then she removed those same memories in the end, she didn't make a mess of anyone's memory that's on you. In fact people didn't even start living differently from what they were already used to.
There is nothing here she needs to be forgiven for when it comes to the villagers. You can make it point that she needs to ask forgiveness to the adventures she charmed, but a great portion of them were actually bandits. Adventurers, guards and Merchants being only a portion of the affected party. And obviously she has no way to apologize to them because they are probably not even close to the village. What she did wasn't anywhere as grave as you guys are trying to make it seem.
She had all the chances in the world to truly enslave their minds an make them do her bidding, expand her influence and take the nearby region. Treating them all as cattle and workforce. But she didn't do any of that, She inserted false memories of herself as being a villager, was pampered by the families and "befriended" the villagers, would buy books to pass time. And them charm travelers to tell her stories. That's it, that's all she did. She did train her necrromantic powers to raise zombies, but she didn't really do anything with those zombies. If anything she used the zombies to simulate an attack in order to grab the attention of adventurers, making it easy for her to meet new people. No one was ever truly harmed. Adventurers usually don't have families, so even though they disappeared for a while, there was no actual damage caused to their families ny their temporary disappearence.And bandits wel, if anyhing she should've killed those, as they probably went to the village to rob the inhabitants blind.
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@BloodySorcerer You're totally missing the point.
First of all, I'm not talking about law and her not being human doesn't change a thing. I'm talking about people being wronged and I'm addressing villagers only when speaking about her "punishment". Travelers weren't staying in the village willingly. Using hypnosis, charm, brainwashing, drugs or any other power to make people "want" to do something is still forcing them. It's not something debatable as it is already commonly deemed wrong in the case of rapes. Neither of aforementioned methods is a way to make the deed ethical. So after all she DID kidnapped people and it was wrong. As for slavery - it's a definition problem. In my native language "not having a free will" is part of a word "slave", so to me the people deprived of their own will by her sorcery are kind of slaves. But I can concede on this one.
As I started my reply with counting, I guess it's time for: Second of all, her punishment. I know she can't ask forgiveness from long gone travelers but there are still some people around she tried to kidnap - her failure doesn't change a thing. She never apologized or showed remorse. The only thing she regretted was her failure. And Usato gave her something like a punishment (staying in the village and not abducting any more people - kind of imprisonment) but she weaseled out of it by forcing (!) a familiar contract. Instead of being punished, she got more exciting life and possibly many real friends (not forced to be friends by altering memories). She wronged Usato&friends and we weren't given any reasons to forgive her and accept her as their companion. And here finally goes the topic of villagers. Being forgotten by them isn't much of a deal for her and counting it as a reason to forgive her doesn't make sense. Compared with the things she gains by leaving with the MC, being forgotten means nothing. A similar case: would you cry over your destroyed car if you were given your dream car in its stead?
In my opinion the story would be much better and I would be much more prone to forgive her if she at least confessed everything before the villagers. Some of them would be mad and reject her, while some of them could even accept her. Being rejected by a community you care for is more suited to be a punishment than being forgotten. She got it easy. And I personally am indignant for the sake of the poor woman who thought Nea (is it her name?) was her daughter. Being a parent is important part of people's lives and now she lost memories of 20 years being a parent. It doesn't feel right. But if she remembered and just knew the truth, it would both bring stronger feelings and be fair to the woman. I wouldn't even mind if she forgave her and accepted Nea as her daughter. Leaving the village and being separated from a person who accepts her as her daughter - for the first time without manipulating memories - would be much better way to atone for things she'd done than being conveniently forgotten. Being rejected by some villagers and separated from the accepting "mother" would make me accept her too. Now I can only hope for some sort of redemption arc.
And honestly it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that after all these misdeeds connected to disregarding people's free will (abducting, altering memories) what she does as a "repentance" is exactly the same thing - arbitrarily altering memories.
First of all, I'm not talking about law and her not being human doesn't change a thing. I'm talking about people being wronged and I'm addressing villagers only when speaking about her "punishment". Travelers weren't staying in the village willingly. Using hypnosis, charm, brainwashing, drugs or any other power to make people "want" to do something is still forcing them. It's not something debatable as it is already commonly deemed wrong in the case of rapes. Neither of aforementioned methods is a way to make the deed ethical. So after all she DID kidnapped people and it was wrong. As for slavery - it's a definition problem. In my native language "not having a free will" is part of a word "slave", so to me the people deprived of their own will by her sorcery are kind of slaves. But I can concede on this one.
As I started my reply with counting, I guess it's time for: Second of all, her punishment. I know she can't ask forgiveness from long gone travelers but there are still some people around she tried to kidnap - her failure doesn't change a thing. She never apologized or showed remorse. The only thing she regretted was her failure. And Usato gave her something like a punishment (staying in the village and not abducting any more people - kind of imprisonment) but she weaseled out of it by forcing (!) a familiar contract. Instead of being punished, she got more exciting life and possibly many real friends (not forced to be friends by altering memories). She wronged Usato&friends and we weren't given any reasons to forgive her and accept her as their companion. And here finally goes the topic of villagers. Being forgotten by them isn't much of a deal for her and counting it as a reason to forgive her doesn't make sense. Compared with the things she gains by leaving with the MC, being forgotten means nothing. A similar case: would you cry over your destroyed car if you were given your dream car in its stead?
In my opinion the story would be much better and I would be much more prone to forgive her if she at least confessed everything before the villagers. Some of them would be mad and reject her, while some of them could even accept her. Being rejected by a community you care for is more suited to be a punishment than being forgotten. She got it easy. And I personally am indignant for the sake of the poor woman who thought Nea (is it her name?) was her daughter. Being a parent is important part of people's lives and now she lost memories of 20 years being a parent. It doesn't feel right. But if she remembered and just knew the truth, it would both bring stronger feelings and be fair to the woman. I wouldn't even mind if she forgave her and accepted Nea as her daughter. Leaving the village and being separated from a person who accepts her as her daughter - for the first time without manipulating memories - would be much better way to atone for things she'd done than being conveniently forgotten. Being rejected by some villagers and separated from the accepting "mother" would make me accept her too. Now I can only hope for some sort of redemption arc.
And honestly it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that after all these misdeeds connected to disregarding people's free will (abducting, altering memories) what she does as a "repentance" is exactly the same thing - arbitrarily altering memories.
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@Darkstar961 I'd rather call it discussing ethics but I can't say you're wrong 😅
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You have some very aggressive lolis there, translators!
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