Have a dedicated button to separate the old comment system from the new system

[shinya78]

Since someone might as well make the suggestion...

Ever since the complaints about the button that used to direct the old comments to the forums are now being used by the new system, and that the old chapter discussion comments are now being buried underneath it. I suggest adding a new button, not unlike the old one, that would serve the purpose of separating the new integrated comments from the old forum comments.

The old button could function the same as before, just rebranded to something different, while the new button would serve for the new integrated comments. For example, forum [Discuss]ions vs casual [Comment]s. (Or use the new button for the old system, whichever is easier for the devs.)

This is effectively a suggestion to rebrand the old chapter comments in the forums reader as DISCUSS(ions), as an example, to differentiate it from the new system that is taking over as the new COMMENT(s).

This would allow users to quickly comment using the new system, while keeping the old system just as easily accessible as it used to for forum discussions, ensuring that both systems could co-exist without so much a fuss.

"Can we have two buttons?": No, it's confusing, and that will lead to a further split of platform vs forums.

Confusing? How?
All this does is give easy access to what still exists as the old forum comments. The sub-forum where these old comments are located is already called Chapter Discussions for that specific reason. Rebranding the old system to something else would clearly tell the user what to expect, light comments about the chapter vs deep discussions about the chapter. Sure, anyone could use either system for whatever purpose with varying degrees of success, but having both options being openly available right in front for everyone to use is better than burying the old function underneath the new one. Users will naturally trickle down to whichever system they want for whichever purpose.

If the idea was having both alive as mentioned by @Bartolumiu

the plan is to keep both the new comments and the forums alive at the same time, with each having its own purpose.
Title and chapter comments on the new system, and general chatting and discussion here in the forums (so yeah, lurkers, you can keep lurking as you've been doing up until now).

Then this should be a no-brainer.

edit:

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Have two buttons: one for forums and one for on-site comments on the chapter list items

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

Once again, the reason they give is that it'll be confusing. Citing that their example user would be "confused when they see that there are two kinds of comments now."

How is this a valid reason when:

• Implementing the [new comments system] while keeping the [old "comments" system](forum discussions) alive already establish the fact that there are indeed two kinds of comments now.
• They acknowledged that the button shouldn't open the reader if users only want to read the comments. This is the very same function the old button had, but for chapter discussions in the forums instead, the function already existed.

Hi, I'll post here a reply I received from the developers regarding this suggestion:

Do not open the reader if you just want to read the comments

"Valid. We will be exploring ways of doing this."

• They acknowledged that "read # older comments" should be renamed to indicate that these are the comments in the forums, which are separate from the new system. Surely their example users would see this, become confused, and ask "wait, there are two kinds of comments?".

Hi, I'll be posting here a developer reply regarding this suggestion:

Be explicit about the fact that older comments exist in the forums to prevent confusing it as if you're going to be navigated to the next page of comments.

"Valid. We'll be discussing on the wording side of things and see if we can be explicit with the fact that it is indeed the forums."

• Having two buttons would quickly let users choose whether to access and use the new system[Comments], or the old system[Forums] with a single click. Something the current setup allows for the new system, but an extra step is needed to be done for the old system. Was the plan to make the forum discussions more obscure than ever, by making it one click further away?

The only other valid reason left that I could think of that doesn't go into tinfoil hat territory that would legitimize their claim, is if, and this is a big IF:

• They assumed when the users asked for two buttons, it meant they should share the exact same icons.

To which I say, it should've been obvious that the icons should be different, without the need for us users to spell it out for them. Even then, making a new icon if none currently exists, shouldn't be out of the question.

If they still claim the same reason for refusal, or change goalposts, then by that point maybe it's due time to get the tinfoil hats.

edit:
Mind you, a dedicated button to redirect to the forums when inside the reader already exists, it is even explicitly stated that it will lead to the forums.

Renamed "Read N older comments" to a more explicit "Read N older comments in the forums," as with other relevant forum-related buttons.

All this suggestion asks is to give users the same thing before getting inside the reader.

 

[Jergens]

I feel out of the loop. Way back in the before times, we used to have forum-style integrated comments. Why can't we just do that? Why is it either forum comments or integrated social-media-styled comments? Am I stupid?

Integrated comments has always been on the list of things since that message stared you in the face everytime you looked at title comments. When people wanted integrated they wanted what we had in v3. The "damned if you do damned if you dont" attitude only makes sense if people give them shit for what was actually asked for. Twatter posts aint it and getting conflicting responses on their intentions isn't helping. Maybe the people calling the shots now are just too new and dont remember how things were.

 

[BobBiscuit]

Classic move of wanting to get rid of am old feature by hamstringing it so much that users use the inferior new option because it becomes too much of a pain to use the old one and then pretend the users like the new feature better. That's the real reason why they won't add a button that directly links to the forums and why the forum link is at the bottom of the new comment section rather than the top. They want to put up hurdles to reduce forum use as much as possible so they can justify deleting it later.
Sure, I get that you can't develop new features easily for this forum software. But so what? It's a forum, do you really need new features?

Just to add to this, forums have been around since the earliest days of the internet. How is it not easier, and more resource-efficient, to just create your own source code for forums? Or to find a decently functional open-source base to build from?

 

[curvedtree]

You could've just fully read the opening post to save you some trouble, or read this if the post is now too dayum lawng.

Honestly, I wasn't going to write that edit, but I felt like after reading so many people voice their opinion I should stand up as well and even if it isn't much, at least I voiced my concerns, sure MangaCorpo doesn't care about the free user, but

 

[grrman]

Better idea: Just get rid of this new dumbass system.
No one fucking likes it and the forum system was and still is awesome and superior in every way.

 

[grrman]

I see the "channel hopping" as part of the compromise, and I already know fully well how it feels like to be involved with forums for the less popular titles. Neither system would do much for those titles regardless, it all depends on us users.

I can't read any further into as to why they want more site engagement without going into tinfoil hat territory, but at least I'm inclined to believe that with the new system, they intend to welcome a new wave of readers that comes from a younger generation than us old guards. This new wave being the same wave that suddenly burst into the scene after "La Rona". Only time will tell if this new wave will actually come, but yeah, this is all starting to feel like SF6's Modern and Classic styles clashing all over again.


Obligatory reminder that CommentsTM is currently pay-to-beta test, and will be available absolutely free for all regular users when the paying chefs are done cooking.

When they are done cooking? What are they cooking? A slop pot full of crap no one likes?

 

[Dverin_Oshiban_Duren]

Who actually asked for this?

Yeah, most users were okay with what we originally had.

In short, XenForo has problems, some wanted change, they added a new system and people don't like it.

The reason they made a new system was because a lot of users had complaints about XenForo and a while ago, a new comment system integrated with the mainsite and the migration of forum posts or at least switching to a better forum was seen as an idea which would be troublesome but worth it in the long run.

But what we got was... you know.

I don't mind the new thing as long the old thing ain't gone but what bothers me and many others is the poor communication, some not-so-good decisions and bugs (which they are trying to fix)

 

[Jergens]

and bugs (which they are trying to fix)

Which is good don't get me wrong, but what really bothers me is they implemented the fixes on the canary branch of the site, when they clearly had no issue putting broken garbage on the mainsite where there are still things broken for the vast majority of users.

 

[seekermoc]

When I say 'regular' I meant to say 'paying'

Have you seen anyone actually say that they like it? I can use it yet still hate it, and so does basically anyone who mentions it - including the paying supporters.

 

[panzerkampfwagyu]

I feel out of the loop. Way back in the before times, we used to have forum-style integrated comments. Why can't we just do that? Why is it either forum comments or integrated social-media-styled comments? Am I stupid?

That would be the dream, tbh.
Make it a forum+

 

[shinya78]

That would be the dream, tbh.
Make it a forum+

Actually frickin' agree.
Make it a forum+

 

[N2O]

I want to be perfectly clear that I don't give a shit if the new system isn't going to be paywalled in any capacity in the future, that has zero bearing on my dislike of this. This style of integrated comments is bad, and will always be bad no matter how much you change or improve the UX of it. For short comments? Bad. For longer comments? Bad. For comment chains? Bad. For comments with a funny meme picture? Well maybe that will work ok on mobile but still BAD.

It won't be good in the sidebar as it is now. It will not be good in the footer.

I have seen this on other websites in various forms, and guess what? Guess what????? ALL BAD

 

[Zhou]

I hate this new system. The readability sucks and it's a hassle to use the old style without a dedicated button. If they stick with it at least give us a button.

 

[shinya78]

Reminder back on the original topic that their argument of

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

doesn't hold water, as there already exists a dedicated button to redirect to the forums when inside the reader.

Renamed "Read N older comments" to a more explicit "Read N older comments in the forums," as with other relevant forum-related buttons.

Now where did I got that... ahh yes... here.

Know what? Lemme add that to the evidence pile(OP).

 

[Reikou]

Who even asked for this new system? Just scrap it and go back to the old one.
Seriously, even opening the comment section from the main page will just open the whole chapter, which sucks if you already read it but just wanted to check the discussion or don't want to use more data than needed.

 

[HaikenEdge]

Who even asked for this new system?

Corporate.

 

[shwiftyshfifty]

Ngl
This year has been just shit update after shit update, and the staff has been awful at communication and more than anything seem to want to make the community go away

I kind of feel the same way; as if all they really want to be is a site for aggregators to scrape so they'll remove the community to reduce load on the servers. Then, when the community complains, they'll flippantly dismiss it as "bandwagoning" and continue to do whatever the fuck they want.

 

[T-sama]

Corporate.

Funny how all the changes started after they registered as a business in UK or whatever

Honestly? I think it all makes sense if there's someone new calling the shots and the mods are just forced to try do damage control, not unlike that Diablo Immortal pic someone posted earlier here or in one of the discussions parallel to this

Someone completely out of touch with the community making decisions based on shitty business logic would explain the sequence of terrible decisions one after another

Either way we better put our ducks in a row cause things will probably only get worse and this site won't become the new Crunchyroll / Fakku, doom is the only logical outcome if things continue to go downhill, if another big DMCA doesn't happens first that is

 

[shwiftyshfifty]

Who even asked for this new system? Just scrap it and go back to the old one.
Seriously, even opening the comment section from the main page will just open the whole chapter, which sucks if you already read it but just wanted to check the discussion or don't want to use more data than needed.

For whatever reason, unknown to us lowly tier 3 users, the site needed to make more money. Therefore, they implemented a de-facto paywall and gave a bunch of different reasons as to why it isn't a paywall. Anyone that pointed this out was dismissed as "bandwagoning"; a great way to avoid responsibility.

 

[T-sama]

I would also like to point out that the new comments section is basically being unused too :v

I think I saw only two chapters where people actually made posts and it was like 3 or 4 posts at best

Everything else? Either someone was kind enough to create a forum so people posted there or there was no discussion at all

New comment section barely started and it already shows signs of being a failure

Fact that only supporters can post or create forum thread isn't a good look either

All in all if this is some braindead strategy to try force people to become supporters it sure is a utter failure and nothing but shooting at own foot since if anything it's turning people against Mangadex and making more unlikely anyone wants to become a supporter

Good job I guess?

 

[shwiftyshfifty]

Because being rightfully angry at this change must be bandwagoning. :V
As it is, despite the "reassurances" that the forums are intended to retain their functionality and use, the overall feel from the UI introduced in this update is that of outright hostility towards the forums, as has staff reactions to criticism of this update, and that genuinely worries me, and I can't get it out of my head that it's just corporate lip service. I understand that nobody likes change, and it can get grating to be blamed if you have no say in the matter yourself, but the fact remains that as staff, they need to at least try to step back and identify and separate valid criticism from mindless whining, and as staff, they still have more direct means of communication with the people who do have say than any of us users do.

I would love having a button to take me directly to the forums again, from both the chapter and the feed (as I don't want to have to wade into the chapter several times to check for new posts on threads I've been enjoying, or need to go into a chapter on a manga I'm super iffy about just to see what people who have read it have to say on its quality or whatnot). As it is, the current method of getting to a chapter's forum thread is what feels deliberately confusing/obtuse, and additionally, having been a hair's breadth from disabled in all but official paperwork for several years, I don't have money to cough up to engage in the current comment system unless someone has been so kind as to create a thread for it already. And as you can see from this post, I tend to be wordy. Short-form-required comment sections and squished comment sections being the only options available drive me away from interacting from a community, because I don't feel like I can accurately convey my thoughts, with the exception of one-off jokes (and the current side-bar squished comment section would drive me away anyway, because half my screen is the fucking sun in comparison to the comment section: manga pages are not affected by dark mode).

Admittedly my engagement with the forums is mostly shitposting, but sometimes the manga isn't trash and I feel obligated for more lengthy response simply out of respect for the mangaka. I too don't have any money, I can just barely buy enough food for myself; so, experiencing this whole clusterfuck the devs have created is a double punch to the gut. First, in that I am being excluded from interacting with the culture because of my socio-economic status (fuck the poor); second is that by being excluded I have nothing to distract me from the inherent problems I face again because of my socio-economic status. Sure I can still read the manga but I don't because of that wonderful exclusionary line I have to read if I want to talk about it: "Only supporters can comment!" [fuck the poor]

It makes me so sad and angry that this site is starting to become the crunchy roll of manga and there's nothing I can do about it. I honestly don't know if I'll came back after this. It's obvious to me the devs don't care that much about the community and just want people to pay them for the privilege of using their site despite what they say. Especially because what they said changed a bunch of times. It was an oversight; it wasn't intentional; it was intentional to reduce load; it's not a paywall but we'll keep the payment portal open; etc.

Is there a word for the dissolution of an online community by corporate/capitalist interests?

pathetic/gross/stupid/selfish

/rant