Ihoujin, Dungeon ni Moguru - Ch. 3 - Goodbye, my guns.

[criver]

@WillLi

even if people came after him and see he doesn't have them the worst possible out come is they kill him and leave. However if he does have guns the worst possible outcome is they kill him and take the guns.

Dying is already the worst possible outcome for him as a person. Here's a better idea: how about going with the outcome of not dying, because you do not throw away your equipment necessary for survival?

I know it may sound outlandish to actually keep your military issued equipment, but just think of the possibilities! Like being able to defend yourself for example. Especially after you demonstrated to everybody that you have guns anyways.

And the reason for the 'flex' with the explosions was to push the situation.

He didn't need to push anything except his ego. He could have just as easily just gone in and taken back his stuff "illegally". Granted, it's not as flashy as an explosion, and doesn't provide an opportunity to boost your ego by talking down the merchants.

@kilisloe

even if he kept the gun what's to stop people from ambushing and stealing it?

What indeed? His weapons maybe? Or would you rather be ambushed without weapons and your pants down?

How is it illogical?

You don't see anything illogical in your statement that since it will run out of ammo eventually/needs maintenance it's better to throw it away? Let's go further then - your PC may need maintenance and eventually break - so throw it away.

if its not cleaned and maintained regularly with the right tools it's useless.

Ah yes indeed - being too lazy to maintain your survival equipment, so you throw it away. Truly a genius move!

He saw the danger of carrying it everywhere and made a decision.

You know what's more dangerous than carrying a gun in hostile territory? Not carrying a gun.

 

[WillLi]

@criver Notice how I said 'worst possible' outcome not 'only outcome'. The MC is a soldier, not a random, he can defend himself with weapons from this world. I mean look at the meatball he was dragging around before. He also is interested in more than 'his personal gain' he has a mission, and also ideals. So those need to be factored into his decision making as well. And he decided for the sake of his ideals and mission it'd be best to get rid of the guns. I would like to point out though, that it's the -guns- he got rid of. He kept the robot, and the medicine for certain cause it says he did. We don't know what else he kept though, but it only specifically says the -guns- were gotten rid of.

And as for the explosion, no he couldn't steal his stuff back, as noted in this chapter it was too much stuff to 'carry' so he could only steal some of it, and would likely have to fight security for it, so once he goes in once, security would double and stop him from going in again. Also there is the risk of him getting caught and becoming a criminal, and being imprisoned indefinitely, and thus failing his mission. So yes, there was a need to 'push the issue' to turn currently inaccessible assets into something usable.

The short of it is, the MC is capable of using other weapons besides guns, he also didn't get rid of all his equipment, just the guns. He also isn't some OP invincible badass that can guarantee that his guns aren't stolen. And he has an important mission, that is best done with as little distraction (people trying to steal his stuff) as possible.

 

[Nyaaa]

MC is pretty good. He takes things into consideration and decides his actions nicely.

 

[kilisloe]

@criver
I just realize you are really trying to make your answers sound more correct than mc. Mc literally explained the reason he got rid of the guns in the chapter. your argument is getting repetitive and illogical.

You know what's more dangerous than carrying a gun in hostile territory? Not carrying a gun.

I'm not going to explain why it's a good idea again. the dude is trained in hand to hand combat.

What indeed? His weapons maybe? Or would you rather be ambushed without weapons and your pants down?

Guns weren't the only weapon he has to fight with.

Ah yes indeed - being too lazy to maintain your survival equipment, so you throw it away. Truly a genius move!

Think about what you said, read chapters 2 and 3 again, then come back.

You don't see anything illogical in your statement that since it will run out of ammo eventually/needs maintenance it's better to throw it away? Let's go further then - your PC may need maintenance and eventually break - so throw it away.

not only that analogy made no sense, I even told you Maintainance and ammo wasn't his only problem.
I realize you have no real point and this argument is pointless. let's read more chapters and see how he going to handle it.

 

[GrimThoughts]

What a badass

 

[Lorraine]

So what is he gonna use to fight now?

 

[criver]

@WillLi

Spoiler

he can defend himself with weapons from this world.

Which doesn't change the fact that a gun is simply superior - meaning he can get out of situations he otherwise wouldn't be able to.

And he decided for the sake of his ideals and mission it'd be best to get rid of the guns.

Nowhere in his mission is there a note saying that he's supposed to get rid of his equipment - on the contrary. The ideals thing is flimsy at best - as noted in the premise, there have been multiple people sent there already with guns and advanced tech. If the natives are really able to reverse-engineer it, then his choice is pretty much irrelevant in the face of statistics.

Also there is the risk of him getting caught and becoming a criminal, and being imprisoned indefinitely

So blowing up a warehouse intentionally is any less criminal? Basically - your point is that going in and getting your stuff through stealth and force is more of a crime than blowing up the whole place while injuring the workers there. I don't think you realize the discrepancy in the magnitude of the two actions. If blowing up the whole warehouse is justified, then "stealing" your stuff is beyond justified.

The short of it is, the MC is capable of using other weapons besides guns, he also didn't get rid of all his equipment, just the guns.

Other inferior weapons that is - there's a reason he was issued a gun. And what does not getting rid of all his equipment have to do with this? Are you trying to prove that he's only slightly retarded?

He also isn't some OP invincible badass that can guarantee that his guns aren't stolen.

If he isn't an OP invincible badass, those guns may come in handy, don't you think? Or are you of the opinion that people should go to war with machetes rather than firearms? Because their guns may get stolen after they die.

The whole argument is ridiculous. Getting rid of all his guns was simply a stupid decision - his chances for survival are objectively lower now.

@kilisloe

Spoiler

Mc literally explained the reason he got rid of the guns in the chapter.

His only actual reason was that the guns may be used and reverse-engineered by the natives. However, considering the amount of people and equipment previously sent there, his actions are statistically irrelevant in that context. What they are relevant for though, is his chances of survival - which he intentionally decreased by a considerable margin. I know he has plot armour, and thus this will not matter at the end of the day, but it was still a glaringly stupid decision.

the dude is trained in hand to hand combat.

You wanna try hand to hand combat vs guns?

Guns weren't the only weapon he has to fight with.

Doesn't change the fact it was his best weapon - getting rid of it for no logical reason was stupid.

I even told you Maintainance and ammo wasn't his only problem.

You quoted them as reasons, however - so I corrected you. If you have any better reasons - go ahead - present them.

 

[WillLi]

@criver You are forgetting that the other missions deployed with large teams. They'd have an easier time keeping their stuff from getitng stolen. The MC on hte otherhand encountered a weird situation where all his team ended up dead. Also of course the gun is superior, but that's not the point for the MC, we're talking about risk to his ideals. If he went on this mission in the first place, there are plenty of things more important to him than his safety.

Also yes, infact blowing up the explosives was entirely not criminal. Because him being able to blow them up proved they were his, and that proved they were stolen goods and that they shouldn't have had them in the first place. Hence why the only reason he was about to have to pay the company was because they weren't the ones that stole it, rather they were just told to hold it. The MC did not know that at the time of blowing it up though, so he'd have made that decision thinking there weren't going to be criminal repercussions for that. Because if you claim he blew it up remotely, then you are asserting that it is his stolen property. If you're saying it's not his stolen stuff, then he couldn't have been the one to blow it up. Stealing his own stuff is only justified if he can prove it's his. That's the thing, you need to -prove- that it was stolen. If he's caught without being able to prove that the stolen goods are his then he's in trouble, there's no discrepancy you're just thinking too shallowly.

As for the last two, you're not getting the point because all you can see is that guns are powerful. Which no one is denying. No one, even the MC thinks that he's stronger without the guns. That isn't the problem. The problem is the risk to reward ratio for having guns without a team to protect them. I did point out that he should've indeed kept one or two guns for himself, that wouldn't' be a huge problem, but that's about as far as it goes. If he is worried about the weapons being stolen, which is a personal thing, and you can't use your own personal values to determine what his should be, then that constant worry will effect his performance on the mission And if his mission can be accomplished without guns, then a judgement call would be to take out the constant source of worry. The only way to know what the 'right' decision is though is to know how much that worry will effect his performance.

 

[criver]

@WillLi

Spoiler

You are forgetting that the other missions deployed with large teams.

And you're forgetting that it is just as likely that they died like his teammates or "got their guns stolen". If you want to go with the premise of the natives being able to reverse-engineer the guns - then this will happen regardless of what the MC does or doesn't do. They are basically "offloading" tons of guns - the MC is statistically irrelevant.

Because if you claim he blew it up remotely, then you are asserting that it is his stolen property.

If you want to argue this - then it is perfectly reasonable to use the same argument when/if he's caught "stealing" back his stuff. On another note - being able to blow up a warehouse doesn't prove that your stuff was stolen - it just means you blew up the warehouse - for all that it's worth you could have intentionally snuck the bombs in there - so this whole thing is bs to begin with.

The problem is the risk to reward ratio for having guns without a team to protect them.

There's no risk if you don't advertise your arsenal by blowing stuff left and right and then demonstrating the value of your bullets.

you can't use your own personal values to determine what his should be

I am not using "my values" - I am using logic - he objectively decreased his survival chances, while achieving nothing in return. As mentioned - there are tons of guns already in the world - MC basically achieved nothing. Correction - he actually made the extra effort to advertise his arsenal, despite his supposed ideals. It's just inconsistency galore.

Also - use spoilers if you write walls of text - the other users will appreciate it.

 

[WillLi]

@criver

Spoiler

Actually no it's not as likely the other groups died like his group. Also the last group seems to have been in 1956/7. And might very well be the reason this place has guns in the first place. And possibly could've started a war. So no it's not insignificant that he has advanced guns. You keep saying 'if they have the technology to reverse engineer the guns it doesn't matter" but the simple fact is, that's wrong, because all the guns they got before were from 50+ years ago at best, assuming they did get guns. We don't know if the previous armies destroyed them as well. Eitehr way, considering when smokeless gunpowder was invented, the fact they don't have it here means that if guns were stolen before, they at the time did not have the technology to properly reverseengieer them, but agian, that was 50+ years ago. You're not taking time into account.

You can't use that argument when he's stealing. Because that doesn't -prove- it's his, and if he's caught while trying to get in, people could just say he planted a bomb while he was inside. And that doesn't prove that a bomb was stolen from him. So no, that doesn't cover him for trying to steal it unless he's caught before he gets inside the building. The reason it worked was because he -didn't- sneak a bomb in there. Even if someone tried to say he did, unless they can prove he snuck a bomb in, you can't change him. The proof you have is "My place blew up when he hit a button." Not only do they not have the technology to analyze said switch, but the guy who owns said switch is saying "It blows up my gear that was stolen". And not only did they get a large shipment of 'strange stuff' to their warehouse the day after this guy arrived, there is -proof- of him going around town looking for his stolen stuff. Literally all the evidence is in his favor. You're also entirely forgetting about the fact that since they lost control of the situation when the MC blew it up, they are likely to panic and not think clearly enough to fabricate a case against him.

Third point, you are just wrong, the dungeon is a place many people go to, and he will have to party. If he uses guns, there is a chance of someone encountering him while he does it. Also if he is trying to keep them secret that would mean he can't party up, and there is no way he can clear the dungeon solo. So that would again, reduce his effectiveness to try and keep guns secret.

Firstly, the guns in this world are not like his guns, as he demonstrated, and was mentioned, they use black powder. He also has not objectively decreased his chances of survival. His guns are powerful yes, but all that matters is how effective the weapons are as a deterrent for his chance of survival. If the guns are total overkill, and the weapons of this world will clear things, or his main weapon would end up being magic or supernatural powers rather than his gun anyway, then his survival chance hasn't changed actually. What has changed is his 'combat power' but it is possible to have more combat power than necessary and cause diminishing returns.

He also didn't 'advertise' his arsenal, the only person who knows about his guns right now is someone who essentially can't defy him because at any time he can for her to pay up the 66000 gold using the feather. Which will end her. So she's not gonna go around telling people about his stuff.

The problem with your analysis is that all you're looking at is the 'stats' of things and assessing their value. You're not actually accessing their necessity, nor are you looking at how much time passed. The guns aren't necessary to his mission, but there is risk involved with them, that can't be denied. So the MC made the decision to remove the risk rather than dealing with it. Maybe you would deal with possibly being hunted, but the MC doesn't want to go through with that. That's not a stupid decision, it's risk assessment and him not being stupid enough to think that he can deal with all the potential issues on his own.

 

[Shirobane]

@albertcookie302 here’s the LN site: https://dragon-novels.jp/product/ihoujin/

 

[ivv]

MACHINA-CHAAAAN!
YOu can introduce yourself as miku hatsune too y'know!?

 

[OsoJr]

What the fuck, that whole negotiation was so stupid. She literally says that she can expose where she got the stolen goods from because it would her her public trust, then that's like admitting you stole them. THEY WERE EXPLOSIVES! Plus, she's demanding compensation???? Why? Although they were stolen goods, they were in their storage, they chose to store it there, if they're accusing others for the damages, then is it not clear that those goods are theirs? Like, how the fuck is she so blatantly feigning responsibility.

 

[criver]

@WillLi

Spoiler

Actually no it's not as likely the other groups died like his group. Also the last group seems to have been in 1956/7.

Here we go - apparently we're reading a different manga. Go reread chapter 1. Based on the manga, whole armies were sent in 1951 and 1956 by numerous countries - those armies were annihilated. Now, I am no genius, but an army has enough weapons to go around. And before you go and say that's "old tech" - consider that the tech in the manga is more advanced for the time period - MC's AI helper is from 1957. Then again shady companies like the one that sent the MC keep sending people there. So your whole argument about the MC protecting their advanced tech basically crumbled right off the bat.

people could just say he planted a bomb while he was inside.

Yes, and people can say exactly the same thing when they catch him with the detonator too. The fact that you blew up a warehouse with your own bombs doesn't make you any less of a criminal.

The reason it worked was because he -didn't- sneak a bomb in there.

The only reason it "worked" is because the writing is unrealistic and convenient.

there is -proof- of him going around town looking for his stolen stuff. Literally all the evidence is in his favor.

Yeah, all the evidence points towards the fact that he blew up a storehouse with his bombs - so sure if this were realistic he should get jailed. Whether they were stolen or planted there by him is a matter of his word vs theirs. By all means irl that guy would be jailed pulling off stupid stunts like that. The difference being that there's no writer irl to distort logic and causality for the MC's convenience.
Let's just appreciate how ridiculously stupid it is to blow up a warehouse full of items and hurt several people, then have the nerve to ask for compensation for the supposed items of yours that you yourself blew up, and believe that you should be left scot free for your transgression. That's straight out of a 4 years old kid's story.

If he uses guns, there is a chance of someone encountering him while he does it.

If he uses a gun it would be because he had no other choice - somebody knowing you had a gun sure beats being dead.

He also has not objectively decreased his chances of survival.

Orly? You wanna bring a sword to a gunfight? I'll have the gun - you can have the sword.

He also didn't 'advertise' his arsenal, the only person who knows about his guns right now is someone who essentially can't defy him

How about you go back and reread the chapters so I don't have to post excerpts from the source material to prove you wrong?

The problem with your analysis is that all you're looking at is the 'stats' of things and assessing their value.

And the problem of yours is that you forgot what happened in the manga, you are trying to argue that blowing up buildings is ok as long as it's with your own bombs, and that throwing away your firearm in hostile territory is a reasonable decision since it apparently doesn't decrease your chances of survival. You should go pitch that last idea to the military, I am sure they will be impressed.

 

[MaTu94]

I didn't quite understand all the interaction with the Phoenix company, they were the ultimate culprits of his suffering these chapters, why did it all end with 1 page and a scare? Also, if they were selling the mermaid to Geto (his granddaughter) then either she was in on the scam or she was being used. Why was all that grazed over?

 

[WillLi]

@criver To sum up what's worng with your post. Firstly you're only replying to snippets and not the whole thing, which addresses most of your complaints in my actual post. Everything about the building can be sumed up with the fact that blowing it up without sneaking in is proof that it was -his- stolen stuff. It's the "Clean hands" principle. For the most part, you can't charge someone for a crime if you were in the process of committing a crime. There are only a few cases you can do that in this world. And in a feudal-ish world that would likely be even less. If you're too dim to get that then there's no point in going any further with you on that.

As for the 1957 related stuff, you're just dim. First, I mentioned that is probably why they have guns in the first place as to suggesting they -didn't- protect their technology. However those armies were wiped out, they didn't "Die on spawn" so they would've been using their guns before capture and bullets would've been expended in there fighting and weapons would've been damaged. And again this was 50 years ago, as I mentioned what likely happened is this world didn't have the technology to reverse engineer it, as I posted above and you just ignored.

Everything else you said, is just wrong. ANd this will be the last post I give you, because you're a waste of time honestly. You're stuck in an idea that this is "bad" and you're just going to keep pulling more and more into it to try and say it is, when really all it is is that he made a judgement different from you, and you can't take that. So why don't you just go read some self inset manga and move on.

 

[welcome2atlantis]

Oh man... He could have become very rich by selling those weapons & ammo. Why...

 

[criver]

@WillLi

Spoiler

Firstly you're only replying to snippets and not the whole thing, which addresses most of your complaints in my actual post.

I disagree that the remainder of your reply addresses anything. I took out what I could identify as the most relevant "snippets", because you were unwilling to actually formulate your points in a concise manner.

Everything about the building can be sumed up with the fact that blowing it up without sneaking in is proof that it was -his- stolen stuff. It's the "Clean hands" principle.

The irony of this sentence. By the "clean hands" (or "innocent until proven guilty") principle the storehouse owners are innocent of "stealing" his stuff until proven guilty (which he cannot do). He however, admitted that he blew up the storehouse - so he cannot claim to be innocent of that. Even if he was able to prove that (which he is not), he would still be guilty of blowing it up.

For the most part, you can't charge someone for a crime if you were in the process of committing a crime.

You can perfectly well. 1 crime doesn't negate another. If I shoot you while you're stealing from a shop, I will still be guilty of murder. Seems like you simply do not know how the law works. There is no law stating that he is allowed to blow up the storehouse even if his stuff was stolen.

so they would've been using their guns before capture and bullets would've been expended in there fighting and weapons would've been damaged.

Are you unironically suggesting that from two large armies, not 1 bullet and firearm remained after the defeat?

as I mentioned what likely happened is this world didn't have the technology to reverse engineer it, as I posted above and you just ignored.

Well riddle me this - if they haven't managed to reverse-engineer an old firearm for 50 years, what are the chances that they'll be able to reverse-engineer a modern weapon? Or will touching his weapon suddenly spring up centuries of calculus and numerical methods in their heads? Your "argument" is crumbling without me even having to address it, that's why I ignored it - it's that obvious.

ANd this will be the last post I give you, because you're a waste of time honestly.

Don't worry, the feeling is mutual.

 

[WillLi]

@criver I wasn't going to reply, but you just did something so stupid. You actually didn't look up clean hands before you tried to use it. Clean hands is not 'innocent until proven guilty' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_hands

 

[criver]

@WillLi

I wasn't going to reply, but you just did something so stupid.

No worries, not knowing a law term in English is perfectly understandable at least, unlike believing that you are owed compensation for blowing your own stuff up + a storehouse and injuring people.

Also:

The defendant has the burden of proof to show the plaintiff is not acting in good faith.

Unless the MC has magically found a way to prove that they stole his stuff (which the storehouse owners didn't btw) - this will not work.

Even if he were able to prove it, it will still not work - this is not a patent problem:

The clean hands doctrine is used in U.S. patent law

But go on, keep arguing that blowing up stuff is legit as long as you can claim that your stuff was stolen. You're basically meatshielding at this point for the bad writing.