Kusuriya no Hitorigoto - Vol. 8 Ch. 37 - Balsam and Wood Sorrel (Part 1)

[Rgal]

Okay, I'm just going to respond to one person who at least seems like they are trying before I go to sleep.
@EnderWin

welp, since I have time to kill I gotta say this...

Rgal, you may have took the argument a bit too personal, and you should also expect that the person may have just been misinterpretting your messages all along. (I'm probably gonna be missing a major part of what you're defending, but...) Also the idea of such thing, like Official229 said, is a bit of a social norm of the time, and like you know with most other cultures, people didn't really care much about their women, so I think his statement can still validate somethings.

After they've been corrected several times, misinterpretation does not sound plausible anymore.
Also I can't what you are trying to in that last sentence. Did you accidentally several words?

 

[Broken25]

@Binary10011

I don't get it what happened? Did her value fall cause she became pregnant - and is that why she had to "take night customers" or whatever?

Yeah, she got degraded to normal prostitute after her value fell, so the granny forced her to take costumers.

Why is Rakan so devastated? Did she die?

She died in the original WN - in the light novel and the manga she got sifilis, but is still alive.

She likes him and sent him her pinkie - so why didn't he marry her?

She sent the pinkie to spite him, not as a mark or love - Or maybe she sent the pinkie while he was in the expedition and he only received it after he came back three years later. It's not completely clear.

Also, this wasn't mentioned in this version (so far) but in the novel her letters to him where intercepted by his family.

so why didn't he marry her?

When he came back from his expedition, her sifilis was probably too advanced and her mental faculties addled - this is actually slighty unrealistic since siphylis generally takes longer to develop, but not impossible.

And if mao mao is genuinely his child and he knows it, why didn't he take her in - especially because he can see her face, meaning he likes her?

The granny doesn't let him see her and beats him with an stick when he tries - and later Mao Mao growed up hating him.

 

[Official229]

@Rgal Guess I'm the dumb one for not understanding you then.
@EnderWin
Let's just go from here, since with this, we're now clear on where the clash is

Wrong. Here's the actual clashing assumptions:
Yours: "is that, you cannot be evil for doing x, if the society in that time and place does not deem it to be evil."
Mine: "no, you can"

For the sake of avoiding evil/good, I changed it to what it's like here:
"You aren't absolute scum on earth for participating in slave ownership, if the society in that time and place deemed it to be commonplace."

Why do I think that? Because you cannot tell if the person is like that because he finds pleasure in hurting/ordering others, or if that was what he was taught all his life.
One modern day example would be cults. The people in cults do not realize they're in a cult, because they've been brainwashed and conditioned their entire life into believing whatever they were made to believe by those around them in the cult. Slave ownership in the past was similar to that because the idea of slave ownership being an accepted practice was passed down from generation to generation (social norms). Whenever someone was born, they would be taught throughout their life that owning a slave was normal. So, if they one day started participating in slave ownership, it wouldn't be because they desired to hurt/order someone around, but because that was just what they've been taught their entire life.
Like, you need some food? Go to the grocery store.
Need man power? Buy a slave.

 

[Binary10011]

@Broken25

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation.

I hope we see why he is kept from his child, resulting in her growing up hating him.

 

[guardian1102]

Huh, never thought he would have prosopagnosia. Would explain a lot about his cold and calculative nature.

 

[Artemi]

Ah right, I assumed your standpoint was logical, but after reading it again it actually wasn't: Some slaveowners are/were fine guys, but some are/were evil, because they're/were slaveowners.
So my bad really, I should have noticed that flaw way earlier.

 

[Lampsforsale]

Oh shit I come back and this comment section is a mess. Guys, take your thing somewhere else. Everything related to the chapter has already been said and it's turning to personal insults. We are on a manga's comment section, nothing more.

And @Binary10011
I replied to you because you said you weren't sure why Rakan didn't ever redeem her in one of your comments and that he should've married her if he loved him in another. I just stated the reasons why he genuinely couldn't do that. If meant you don't know why he doesn't marry her now, well, probably no one in the brothel wants to him to know if she's even alive since they all perceive he abandoned her and left her to her fate.

Looks like someone replied to you while mangadex was falling apart on my end. Good that you got your answer, this section already has enough hostility😀.

 

[Granitefish]

@Binary10011 How would you suggest he go about marrying her after being sent far away before he could, by a father he could not defy, upon coming back being chased away repeatedly and being lied to about her being long gone?

Edit: looks like someone did answer you. so nvm

 

[Broken25]

For the sake of avoiding evil/good, I changed it to what it's like here:
"You aren't absolute scum on earth for participating in slave ownership, if the society in that time and place deemed it to be commonplace."

Well, they were scum.

Of course they thought they weren't, but they were wrong.

And what about the slaves themselves? You think they didn't thought that their slavers where abusing them? You think they didn't hated them? You think they didn't saw their masters as evil?

Why makes the voice of the slaves not matter?

 

[Ovnidemon]

@Rgal @Broken25 Simple argument that morality is subjective: Is killing animal for food evil? Some will think it is, some not. A few years back, it was nearly never considered as evil. In the future, it may be considered as evil in general.
Is owning a car polluting the world evil?
Is using paper coming from tree evil?

You can't say that any of these things are good. It's the same idea for slaves at the times. Contrary to a lot of fictions, slaves where generally more or less well treated for a simple reason: would you buy a horse to make it work to death? No, because it's not profitable, it's cheaper to feed the horse than buying a new ones. Some did it, but in general, no. Slaves where generally not seen as human but as a commodity. As such, owning them isn't evil, as owning an horse or a dog isn't evil.

Absolute evil and absolute good doesn't exist. Everything changes.

I like the saying "Even the most sacred Saint is a sinner for another"

 

[LucidDayDreamer]

@Granitefish
Thanks!

 

[Broken25]

@Ovnidemon

Is owning a car polluting the world evil?
Is using paper coming from tree evil?

Those are interesting questions, but is not what we are discussing at all. it's not really comparable.

Because those are complex questions, with nuance. There is no nuance at all with slavery. Slavery is always abuse. It's never ok.

If a society excuses or embraces slavery, that society is just wrong.

You can't say that any of these things are good. It's the same idea for slaves at the times. Contrary to a lot of fictions, slaves where generally more or less well treated for a simple reason: would you buy a horse to make it work to death? No, because it's not profitable, it's cheaper to feed the horse than buying a new ones. Some did it, but in general, no. Slaves where generally not seen as human but as a commodity. As such, owning them isn't evil, as owning an horse or a dog isn't evil.

The myth of the kind slave owner is a myth.

If you want to be good to your slaves you would free them.

 

[simplechild]

@Broken25 That is a fair point.

It would do you better to not be so unpleasant about it, though.

 

[umemiya]

Thank you for the update ♥️ This chapter broke my heart 😢

 

[tblst]

@Broken25
Frankly, I agree with the pointlessness of discussing the morality of slavery when the transitioning of social norms is already set in stone, but how would you judge an individual to be evil if they were to live in a society which condones slavery? Perhaps it's pretty obvious that a slaveowner is evil- then what about the slaveowner's children, who grew up receiving service from slaves, would probably inherit the slaves, but owned no slaves of their own? What about the merchants, who traded commodities produced by slaves for a living? What about everyday people, who consume those products produced by slaves, thereby perpetuating the slave market through their consumption?

 

[JaffaOrange]

In the WN, Mao Mao's mum is dead. This avoids the icky question as to why Rakan never redeemed her if she became syphilitic. Instead, he only comes to the brothel to pick up Mao Mao as his daughter while the Madam turns him away every time. It's still not 100% confirmed the bedridden women is Mao Mao's mother. In any case, there is the understanding that everything that happened between Mao Mao's mum and Rakan is consential and deliberate. There are multiple references that the industry uses herbal contraceptives and abortificants so a courtesan that gets pregnant does so willingly. Rakan's situation is tricky. He can't refuse his deployment because he needs the money to redeem her and he believes he'll be back before she gives birth. I don't know if that's a good enough justification but it is what it is.

Mao Mao's opinion of her biological father is complicated. She's a smart girl so she has deduced everything that's happened so it's not clear how much she blames him for everything. She still find him deeply unpleasant, a big part to how he pesters her when she stays at the brothel and around work. But she does recognise his talents and is willing to exploit his position and desire to dote on her even if she doesn't want to recognise him as her father (that position belongs to the pharmacist uncle and no one will usurp that as far as she's concerned)

 

[InvitedGuest]

Damn, now that's a twist. I guess since we are always in Mao's perspective we just followed her conclusions about him being this villain beat by beat. Now I just feel bad for the guy. It doesn't help that he doesn't seem to have a good reputation though. With a condition like that, it makes a whole lot more sense why.

 

[2hot4you]

So is Rakans "uncle" the same person as Mao's herbal medicine dad/grandpa?

 

[Official229]

@Broken25
Just so I stop getting in the way of comments talking about the chapter:

Spoiler

Just so that we're clear:

There is no nuance at all with slavery. Slavery is always abuse. It's never ok.
If a society excuses or embraces slavery, that society is just wrong.

I agree with this.

That said,

Well, they were scum.
Of course they thought they weren't, but they were wrong.

Yes, the question of how would they know they were in the wrong, if society taught them that they were in the right?

Which then brings up the question of what is wrong, and what is right.
We are taught this as we grow up by our parents.
Don't eat dirt, don't steal, don't bully people.
Be kind, help the elderly, recycle.

Basic moral guidelines are given to us by our parents and the environment we live in, we don't just wake up with them one day.
Same with slave owners, they were taught that owning slaves was okay, which we're now taught that it isn't (thankfully).

We can all agree that slave ownership is bad, but that's only because society changed from back then, when it wasn't considered bad.
If we were still being taught that slavery was good/normal today, most of us would have believed in it.

>"But I would have realized that having slaves was bad if it was me"
Possible, but if you did break free from the norms set by society, you would be the minority against the majority, trying to explain to them that slavery is bad. This would get some people who aren't that brainwashed by the idea of slavery thinking, and eventually, change society through generations. But until you got people to realize that they were in the wrong, slavery would be considered something normal, and you would be considered crazy for suggesting otherwise.

And just in case you don't believe me that you can't fuck up people just by teaching them things a certain way when they're young, just look up any article on kids raised in cults:

Christina thought there was something wrong with her because she didn't like sex at 11

Does what I'm saying here make sense?
Because this has been my issue from the very start.
How can you call someone scum/a bad person, when they themselves didn't know that what they were doing was bad (due to being taught a certain way)?

 

[sopya_aa]

@2hot4you it seems so