Need LGBT appropriate tags :rejected:

[blackyawgdom]

The literal last line of the first paragraph when it comes to "bara", under the yaoi page on wikipedia...

Few titles have been licensed or scanlated for English-language markets

If you want your bespoke snowflake type subgenre tags, like every single post ive ever made on "ADD THIS TAG OR ILL THROW A HISSY FIT!!!" type posts,
Go. To. Mangaupdates.

*Still waiting for this to be locked, since this is just a circular argument over a topic thats already been rejected.

 

[Sunnyhybrid]

@ShadowofOblivion mainly that entertainment media should represent real life

 

[marikonen]

I came back just to read on the updates, but it seems like the thread is becoming an academic and semantical discussion on constantly evolving genres.

 

[FruitConnoisseur]

You mean a geikomi tag?


Edit: i didn't know bara was offensive so i edit it

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

While it depicts LGBT written characters it isn't necessarily LGBT material or themed.

This is the point that is hard to teach people cause it's hard to find an example similar to it. If you read some of what I linked it goes into how it used to more accurately depict Homosexual and bisexual men their relationship and lifestyle even though it was in a shoujo/josei style of art if it had stayed like that it would be lgbt but it's characters aren't normally treated human anymore, it's hard to explain but @BestBoy actually linked to some yaoi that was older they thought it wasn't yaoi it was but it probably has more human depictions of characters. Yaoi is more like fanservice for women then it is lgbt material. Now can something be lgbt material that is directed towards Heterosexuals? yeah gengoroh tagame is making a new one now after finishing his last one. Can something lgbt feature to main male characters and be written by a female or even a straight female? Yes. But these come on more of a case by case basis. Is it possible that something catagorized as yaoi is lgbt oriented yes. Yaoi though isn't really lgbt oriented and it also promotes negative stereotypes and ideas about Homosexual and bisexual men. Yaoi for one promotes men raping each other in a much more negative way. It promotes it as a normal or glorified thing in alot of yaoi, even in the majority of bara which feature rape it's never or very rarely treated as normal or glorified to the point in yaoi where characters constantly go on to marry or forgive their rapist, which is weird you would think a problem that does actually affect women more than men wouldn't be fetishized more by woman but it is. They also as @BestBoy described do focus a uke/seme relationship but I think thats not a great way to describe it. Uke/seme while not a highly accurate depiction of men the idea of it itself isn't as far off so instead I'll describe what's really going on. The uke alot of times isn't just a femine man they are a women in a man's body are treated as if they were a woman etc and I don't mean they are feminine it's more like their actual gender identity is female even though they aren't being depicted in any way as being trans.

Aside from that though cause I do believe I am getting into more of a rant than anything useful 😸. I do see your point somewhat it would definitely be hard to differentiate cause technically in a warped sense they have lgbt traits. So maybe something like "LGBT Lifestyle" where it would be themed to focus on more accurate depictions of lgbt characters.

But honestly there isn't a great one for trans gender swap doesn't really work cause it can be offensive also trans itself is a huge umbrella term... Unlike LGB portion of the soup/sandwich which is pretty specific.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@bigtiddyoneesan that reply above was to you..... Forgot to tag you.

@sunnyhybrid I wasn't arguing that myself but the issue is that yaoi isn't lgbt material so much as it's fanservice for women. The problem is less that it's unrealistic more with the ways it's unrealistic. Though as I have mentioned numerous times there are yaoi that are ok. But if yaoi with how prevalent it is, if there wasn't a problem with it gengoroh tagame wouldn't have had to make that manga that was targeted towards heterosexuals to bring to center more realistic male characters.

There are more problems with yaoi then it necessarily being UNREALISTIC. it's actually pretty damaging to Homosexual and bisexual men in and outside of japan. While there are yaoi that are good even if they are unrealistic there are alot more that aren't. Last I checked Clamp for example that has malexmale pairings doesn't even want their characters to be considered yaoi from what I read in an interview awhile ago. And even then there characters designs are pretty feminine and follow a uke/seme ish pattern when they exist all of their gay/bisexual men are similar in quality to their straight men.

Though I could be mistaken about them not wanting them to be considered yaoi couples I read it a long time ago.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@FruitConnoisseur I don't think many men would be insulted with it here since most native english speakers either didnt know that or are also used to Bara. As for any japanese native if they know english pretty well they are probably used to it by now unfortunately... I use it and will probably still use it but will probably start switching geikomi into my language so it becomes more natural. It makes me sad cause someone turned my favorite flower into and insult them bitches...

@marikonen I mean sorry there isn't enough drama?

 

[FruitConnoisseur]

@ShadowofOblivion and bara is actually a cool name, what a shame :/

Yeah me too, im gonna start using geikomi too. I think geikomi tag is very needed, i mean yaoi and geikomi is as different as shoujo/josei manga and seinen manga. So yeah idk why this is rejected, i hope this suggestion will come up again

Edit: gengoroh tagame is a cool artist i like his works. Also it's so weird that people say 'lgbt lifestyle', like eating? Showering? Going to work? Tf is lgbt lifestyle 😂😂

 

[marikonen]

@ShadowofOblivion No need to get snippy, OP, just pointing out a fact.

 

[precognicent]

@ShadowofOblivion

To be honest. I didn't dive into this topic or vote on this suggestion because I knew this shit would be a shit-storm due to fragile-minded people taking this as an attack on what they prefer to see from LGBT relationships in media but on the other hand I find it odd that this hasn't been discussed before. As you said before, Yaoi and Yuri are both genres consumed by people that aren't gay or lesbian and tend to be quite unrealistic in their representation of said struggles, tribulations and strife that usually affect the LGBT community; you try to search for ones that do but it is a struggle to do so. Yaoi has a huge negative connotation due to how fujoshis have dwelled and seeped within the topics of gay relationships.

The fact that a new feature like this was "rejected" is kind of annoying as it doesn't really hurt anyone; if they like the feature then it's included and if not just, you know, filter it out?

 

[Plykiya]

@precognicent I had a response for this kind of thing back when people asked for trans tags, and my response was this.

"LGBT is quite a large umbrella term. Splitting genderbender into genderswap and crossdressing definitely left a bit of a hole regarding the categorization of trans/intersex/etc stories. I also think that LGBT may be too big of an umbrella term, due to the overlap with lesbian/gay/bisexual content. When I had split genderbender into genderswap and crossdressing, there were only about a dozen stories left out which were a mix of trans stories or intersex stories (freaky girl on notsogirlboy stuff, shoujo is a weird demographic). Comparatively, there's over 6000 manga that have lesbian and gay tags on MangaDex, and would be even greater in number if we added in all the bisexuals"

The tags people come up with are either way too broad or way too specific. If you don't watch the fetishistic stuff, feel free to exclude ecchi/smut/hentai etc. Manga itself thrives on being interesting, playing to tropes, and catering to the audience that wants it which is what those tags are going to have 99% of the time. Finding the normal stuff is hard even for "non-LGBT" relationships

As a not so friendly reminder to everyone posting or replying in the suggestions forums: if you can't stay on topic, if you have nothing to contribute, if you're insulting other people and getting into dumb arguments - stay out of the suggestions forums

 

[Sunnyhybrid]

@ShadowofOblivion I just find the "damaging tropes" you mentioned also exist in romance tag and don't understand why is it only BL that needs to be nitpicked that way.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@marikonen unfortunately that was more an attempt at humor than to be snippy though I can see how you could take it that way I didn't when I posted it and I didn't intend for it to be taken that way.

@precognicent
Thank you! Though I will point out that apparently yuri was originally for women who like women to begin with and that it later grew to be targeted towards men as well. And also I know how you feel about not wanting to comment on the post cause I also didn't want to post it at first cause I was afraid of the backlash and shit storm or claims that I was only trying to incite disagreement in regards to something I sincerely care about... It's never easy bringing up LGBT issues in non-lgbt spaces, hell bringing them up in LGBT spaces can be hard to lol!

@BraveDude8
I still really appreciate your comment about using tags to better find what I want. Though I do want to bring up remembered why I avoid the shounen ai or lit BL tags because they were originally used for pedophilic content and I really think your team needs to rethink that one while yes BL and Shounen ai aren't necessarily that way anymore. I don't think it's a good look for anyone. Maybe go with something like a theme of MxM and FxF for a english alternative that completely disregards age and past definitions and connotations. MxM
and fxf meaning malexmale and femalexfemale respectively.

 

[precognicent]

@Plykiya

I apologize for throwing some insults around. The topic seems to be non-combative but the comments that are decrying this as an attack on their character is kind of showing of lack of awareness of this topic. Which annoys me because the OP is trying their best in informing others about their suggestion which is something I can't sit down and do. All I got to say is, I wouldn't be able to be a teacher (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd7FixvoKBw)

Hopefully, this Suggestion is accepted later on if the OP clears up the ambiguity in what they are trying to do/say. Though, I don't mind it as it is right now but it could be more welcomed if more works come out like "My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness" instead of "Killing Stalking" which the former could be view as a part of the genre OP was gesturing about and the latter is one that the OP shows distaste for.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@sunnyhybrid while they exist in both the romance genre and even in Bara/Geikomi to some extent they are not the defacto norm of the content nor are they a major issue they also do not try to generally depict the aspects as norms and instead are seen at least acknowledged as not normal within their own stories. For example gengoroh tagame has a few stories that involve rape but they aren't pushed as being a positive thing for the victim or acceptable behavior toward the rapist. The rapist has to hide what they did and the victim generally doesn't ever truly enjoy it and only does "enjoy" it in a state of being mind broken something that can actually happen to victims. The rapists are also generally depicted as being the villian in the stories they also do not try to generally depict the aspects as norms and instead are seen at least acknowledged as not normal within their own stories. For example gengoroh tagame has a few stories that involve rape but they aren't pushed as being a positive thing for the victim or acceptable behavior toward the rapist. The rapist has to hide what they did and the victim generally doesn't ever truly enjoy it and only does "enjoy" it in a state of being mind broken something that can actually happen to victims. The rapists are also generally depicted as being the villian in the stories.

Is the issue then that you feel I am picking on BL specifically or that one of the issue brought up is that it's unrealistic?

Also there is a difference between fantasy and something being unrealistic.

I highly suggest you read this and particularly pay attention to the criticism section please.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoi#Sh%C5%8Dnen-ai

This isn't an attack on BL I don't believe that it should be completely removed from the site or something. The point is to bring awareness to how BL/Yaoi isn't equivalent to comics for gay men nor is to the umbrella term for them and that a tag or them that could alleviate the search would help.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@Plykiya

Comparatively, there's over 6000 manga that have lesbian and gay tags on MangaDex, and would be even greater in number if we added in all the bisexuals

I am almost certain you are not doing this on purpose and I want you to know that I don't mean to come off as rude. Yaoi is 100% not equivalent to gay nor is Shounen ai. These tags are genres that specifically target women. I've brought this up alot through out this post.

Yuri gets away with this more since while it was target to women specifically it also targets males and in japan there is a magazine for both demographics.

 

[Plykiya]

@@ShadowofOblivion If you want to rely on wiki articles, the Japanese one regarding yaoi/bl/etc doesn't say that BL implies pedophilia except for English speaking countries such as America.
Your own wiki article is relying on a fact of a definition meaning something before the internet being around, before modern anime and the current tropes were even around. Japan states that the term took off in popularity since the mid to late 90s, meaning literally as soon as the internet was a thing. Surely we're not going to just avoid using a term because of the way it was used pre-internet era before the modern genre itself was.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9C%E3%83%BC%E3%82%A4%E3%82%BA%E3%83%A9%E3%83%96

I am almost certain you are not doing this on purpose and I want you to know that I don't mean to come off as rude. Yaoi is 100% not equivalent to gay nor is Shounen ai. These tags are genres that specifically target women. I've brought this up alot through out this post.

Just because it doesn't target the demographic you want specifically or the message you want conveyed isn't there doesn't mean it suddenly doesn't count as gay. Gatekeeping terms like gay or LGBT is pretty odd when they're umbrella? terms in the first place, it's different for everyone.

 

[marikonen]

@ShadowofOblivion It's alright. This thread has been admittedly heated.

But in the interest of staying on topic and furthering the discussion, I wanted to add that the academic tune of the recent replies just points out how creating an "LGBT appropriate tag" would be difficult to implement, use, and understand for most people. People can't even agree on a definition as to what should be in such a tag and the current plethora of manga up on the internet isn't always so clear cut. How can an uploader or dev know what tag to use? Should Bara/Gei-Komi be used if the author is a member of the community? Should it be based on art style alone? How many uploaded works would even fall under the tag?

While admittedly, the yaoi genre seems to have been overtaken by a negative view due to fujoshis, the genre itself hasn't been stagnant. It's been evolving to the point that even members of the community find it easy to sympathize with the characters. Some have even begun to see it as a side of the same coin (with yaoi as the "more romantic" form and bara/gei-komi as a more explicit one) [there are scholarly articles on these by the likes of Thomas Baudinette and Nagaike Kazumi that explain this better than I ever could]. And I want to point out that while Yaoi has been predominantly made for females, it has also helped pave the way for LGBT content. It makes it easier for authors to circulate material to the general public and even provides people who wouldn't normally be into this kind of media with an introduction of sorts.

Anyway, that's my take on the academic discussion currently going on. But I think that the fact that yaoi is an evolving genre with various kinds of works is what makes it work as a tag in this site. Adding Bara/Gei-Komi wouldn't really help, in my opinion, since people can't often tell the difference and this is a relatively obscure subgenre. Not even the academic community can find a specific definition since manga is a dynamic media.

MD is also primarily a site made for reading and hosting manga. The tag system being simple and concise helps make it effective as a site like that. MangaUpdates is a much better site to look for specific content (and they even use a Bara tag, though not Gei-Komi). I also want to reiterate that recommendation lists or social media posts can be used if a user was looking for a specific type of content. Alternatively, a user could look for a scanlation group that caters to this kind of subgenre, join their server or look for their scanlated works.

 

[bigtiddyoneesan]

As a not so friendly reminder to everyone posting or replying in the suggestions forums: if you can't stay on topic, if you have nothing to contribute, if you're insulting other people and getting into dumb arguments - stay out of the suggestions forums

Yeah you tell 'em Ply! _{(Oh wait I probably fall in that category somewhere...)}

@ShadowofOblivion
I see where you're coming from in that the target audiences differ, but as Plykiya said above, gatekeeping of the term 'LGBT' basically isn't a good idea. I get that it concerns you that a genre not targeted towards actual LGBT people would be labeled 'LGBT', but this ties into earlier points, in that the staff is not obligated to accommodate these preferences. Your other suggestion of 'LGBT Lifestyle' was more in line with what you were thinking, admittedly. Regardless, that entire realm of manga isn't nearly prevalent enough on MD to require new tags.

I feel like I have reached a better understanding of your stances on the matter overall, though. I'd say that this thread was definitely more productive than not.

 

[comeonnow0]

Gatekeeping terms like gay or LGBT is pretty odd when they're umbrella? terms in the first place, it's different for everyone.

I guess we could call it gaytekeeping in this case.