Please Bully Me, Miss Villainess! - Vol. 5 Ch. 78 - Come Be My Daughter!

[BobTheSkrull]

The kids are 5-7 years old... People don't fall in love at that age... These dialogues are so weird

Er...yes, yes they do. It's called a crush.

 

[BobTheSkrull]

In terms of incest, the reason to be against it hasn't been genetics for a while. It'll be the cited reason (with the real one being "it's icky") but in reality the real concern will be power dynamics. As a kid, you wouldn't have the ability to stay away from someone in your family with an unhealthy interest in you, which means any incest relationship you enter will have that hanging over you. Even for when they're of age, there are valid worries of grooming happening prior to that.

The only truly "safe" incest is for when the related parties were separated at birth or early childhood and reunited when both were of age. Citrus happens close enough to when they're adults that it's not that bad, but it's not really great either, mostly because of how Mei comes onto Yuzu initially.

Note: I'm aware that there's issues with these arguments, mostly in relation to other power dynamic imbalances that exist. I'm not arguing against that, I'm just restating the arguments I've heard so we can all be on the same place.

 

[fakename0035]

I don’t suppose anyone has a source for the credits panel?

 

[koyuki]

I don’t suppose anyone has a source for the credits panel?

Citrus

 

[Manchura]

oh, mama didn't die...she went curse coma and they never found a way to wake her up

 

[tvih]

I've seen someone posted that childhood friends who grew up like siblings count as incest...

I still wonder to this day if the people who hate incest so much are secretly into incest if they keep reaching so hard to claim something as incest.

Wouldn't surprise me. There are plenty of homophobes who are that way due to being afraid of their own gayness, after all.

 

[rkkn]

I want to see this placeholder content

 

[rkkn]

I've seen someone posted that childhood friends who grew up like siblings count as incest...

I still wonder to this day if the people who hate incest so much are secretly into incest if they keep reaching so hard to claim something as incest.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's just instinctively very off putting. Sure, there's no logical reason that they shouldn't be able to do whatever they want together. It just feels gross.

 

[Ink_Tide]

In terms of incest, the reason to be against it hasn't been genetics for a while. It'll be the cited reason (with the real one being "it's icky") but in reality the real concern will be power dynamics. As a kid, you wouldn't have the ability to stay away from someone in your family with an unhealthy interest in you, which means any incest relationship you enter will have that hanging over you. Even for when they're of age, there are valid worries of grooming happening prior to that.

The only truly "safe" incest is for when the related parties were separated at birth or early childhood and reunited when both were of age. Citrus happens close enough to when they're adults that it's not that bad, but it's not really great either, mostly because of how Mei comes onto Yuzu initially.

Note: I'm aware that there's issues with these arguments, mostly in relation to other power dynamic imbalances that exist. I'm not arguing against that, I'm just restating the arguments I've heard so we can all be on the same place.

What I remember of Citrus is one being abusive to the other and the other having literally nowhere else to go. I couldn't see it as a romance and just saw the adopted girl's tragedy.

I'm sure if there was enough backlash the author later 'fixed' it with some retroactive "I was asking for it" bullshit or "she apologized and reconciled offscreen so they laugh about that time she assaulted her now haha" but the whole premise is shattered by that interaction: Mei sees Yuzu as an object to satisfy her need to vent frustration, and Yuzu has no options but to endure, perhaps by convincing herself that she is at fault for being abused, or convincing herself that she wants it so it's 'not abuse'. Those are the characters and situations the author wrote. It's something that hangs over any relationship the two have with each other afterward, and it makes me wonder if the author was just stupid or trying to write a different genre at first.

Wouldn't surprise me. There are plenty of homophobes who are that way due to being afraid of their own gayness, after all.

I was told the evil satanists in my computer would turn me gay and trans. What's taking them so long?

 

[WhimsiCat]

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's just instinctively very off putting. Sure, there's no logical reason that they shouldn't be able to do whatever they want together. It just feels gross.

It's fine if you just don't like something, that's just your personal taste.

However I'd say it's an issue if either:
1. You start reaching and try to paint more things as 'problematic' even when it's not.
2. You start acting like you've got moral high ground over what fiction other people consume.

Not saying you're one of such people, but that's the kind of people that irk me the most.

 

[MathMols]

It’s especially weird in Citrus since they’re both teenagers and something lewd has already happened between them before they’re told “by the way you’re sisters now.”

I can only imagine how much of a hormonal nightmare it must be for two teenagers to one day be forced into the same house and told they’re now siblings all the sudden. Frankly I’m glad I never had to deal with it.

Exactly. Like Imagine being in a relationship with someone and your parents end up getting together aswell and now people call it incest between the 2 kids… I have always said that I only call something incest if they are blood related

 

[TanyaTheEvil]

I loved that panel where Elsie says that, "She feels better when I am by here side"... Thanks for the translation

 

[WolfenLady]

but then what about yvonne....... 😮.........

Let's just hope it skipped a generation 😐

 

[tvih]

What I remember of Citrus is one being abusive to the other and the other having literally nowhere else to go. I couldn't see it as a romance and just saw the adopted girl's tragedy.

I'm sure if there was enough backlash the author later 'fixed' it with some retroactive "I was asking for it" bullshit or "she apologized and reconciled offscreen so they laugh about that time she assaulted her now haha" but the whole premise is shattered by that interaction: Mei sees Yuzu as an object to satisfy her need to vent frustration, and Yuzu has no options but to endure, perhaps by convincing herself that she is at fault for being abused, or convincing herself that she wants it so it's 'not abuse'. Those are the characters and situations the author wrote. It's something that hangs over any relationship the two have with each other afterward, and it makes me wonder if the author was just stupid or trying to write a different genre at first.

Side rant: I'm not gonna pretend Citrus started out wholesome by any means, but I didn't feel it was quite as bad as you either once it has time to develop (and it doesn't take all that long for that to happen). I mean... it's hard to put into words I suppose, especially when I have trouble remembering things.

At any rate, I don't recall if Mei ever explicitly apologized for the assaults. But she was a very damaged girl and I never felt like the manga tried to claim what she did was right. And even Yuzu does blame Mei too, at least in a sense. And she kinda even turns the tables on her to make that point.

It's true that such events would at least leave a shadow over what comes after, but on the other hand it's possible to end up in a good relationship even if it starts out all wrong. I never got a "that would never happen" feeling. Human are complex creatures, after all. Many romances mangas do seem to have a habit of starting with a... should I say strange initial setup, to draw people's attention. Citrus is one of them. Someone looking for a purely fluffy romance is definitely looking in the wrong place, but for my part I felt it was/is a journey to redeem/repair their started-off-on-a-VERY-wrong foot relationship and also confronting their personal demons... especially Mei. In that sense it has similarities with Bloom Into You (though the latter is definitely the better story).

Still, regardless of everything else so many people never seem to get past the faux-incest angle. Which is funny because the assaults are definitely the problem morally, not them having a relationship when it turns consensual.

 

[Ink_Tide]

Side rant: I'm not gonna pretend Citrus started out wholesome by any means, but I didn't feel it was quite as bad as you either once it has time to develop (and it doesn't take all that long for that to happen). I mean... it's hard to put into words I suppose, especially when I have trouble remembering things.

At any rate, I don't recall if Mei ever explicitly apologized for the assaults. But she was a very damaged girl and I never felt like the manga tried to claim what she did was right. And even Yuzu does blame Mei too, at least in a sense. And she kinda even turns the tables on her to make that point.

It's true that such events would at least leave a shadow over what comes after, but on the other hand it's possible to end up in a good relationship even if it starts out all wrong. I never got a "that would never happen" feeling. Human are complex creatures, after all. Many romances mangas do seem to have a habit of starting with a... should I say strange initial setup, to draw people's attention. Citrus is one of them. Someone looking for a purely fluffy romance is definitely looking in the wrong place, but for my part I felt it was/is a journey to redeem/repair their started-off-on-a-VERY-wrong foot relationship and also confronting their personal demons... especially Mei. In that sense it has similarities with Bloom Into You (though the latter is definitely the better story).

Still, regardless of everything else so many people never seem to get past the faux-incest angle. Which is funny because the assaults are definitely the problem morally, not them having a relationship when it turns consensual.

What the author provided in "Mei is damaged" is not a defense or justification, but an excuse. Yes, abusers were often abused. No, that's not something that requires me to "understand their situation."

The thing that leaves a shadow isn't the event per se - it's the kind of irredeemable shitbag we're shown that Mei is through those events. I figure you're coming at this in good faith, but the reality is Mei is a horrible person. There's no "making the best" out of it, especially if she's evidently remorseless.

That anyone would defend it is a little repulsive to me, but mostly because - whether they realize it or not - defenders of abusers use the same arguments almost word for word and are often just covering for their own abusiveness when doing so. I'm not saying you are, of course - plenty of people unfortunately believe and repeat the nonsensical and dangerous idea that if you just stay with the abuser for long enough you'll get "a good relationship" out of it, or perhaps most horrifying of all that abusive relationships are normal and you should expect nothing better.

Like I said, the entire story afterwards, regardless of how "romantic" it's marketed as being, just reads as the tragedy of a girl unable to escape an abuser.

Full disclosure: I was never abused. I have a loving, healthy relationship with my close family. My father WAS abused. Decent people make sure their families don't inherit their suffering, shit people use their suffering as an excuse to perpetuate it. I know this because I've lived it, so arguing about "oh the abuser is just a broken person boo hoo" has always rung incredibly hollow to me. The deciding factor isn't brokenness, it's being a shit person.

I don't completely agree that the faux incest is a much smaller problem, because it is the plot device that traps Yuzu with Mei in the first place. Sexually abusive siblings are a real thing. Once again, I just cannot see Citrus as romance. Maybe some sort of yuri hell nightmare tragedy for Yuzu where the only way to survive in a land alien to her that considers her alien to it is to appease the abuser she's trapped with legally.

Is horror tragedy a genre?

 

[Khalic]

I need more!! Q.Q

 

[BobTheSkrull]

What I remember of Citrus is one being abusive to the other and the other having literally nowhere else to go. I couldn't see it as a romance and just saw the adopted girl's tragedy.

I'm sure if there was enough backlash the author later 'fixed' it with some retroactive "I was asking for it" bullshit or "she apologized and reconciled offscreen so they laugh about that time she assaulted her now haha" but the whole premise is shattered by that interaction: Mei sees Yuzu as an object to satisfy her need to vent frustration, and Yuzu has no options but to endure, perhaps by convincing herself that she is at fault for being abused, or convincing herself that she wants it so it's 'not abuse'. Those are the characters and situations the author wrote. It's something that hangs over any relationship the two have with each other afterward, and it makes me wonder if the author was just stupid or trying to write a different genre at first.

Yeah, I don't disagree there. Like the other guy said, it was short enough of a time that I could personally kind of ignore it, but my biggest gripe with the series has always been that it was never really addressed. Now, for all I know Citrus+ has addressed that, as back when I was reading it a few years ago the author seemed to be focused on cleaning up dangling plot threads, but I'm not getting my hopes up for that.

 

[recklessribbon]

Thanks for the translation!

 

[tvih]

What the author provided in "Mei is damaged" is not a defense or justification, but an excuse. Yes, abusers were often abused. No, that's not something that requires me to "understand their situation."

The thing that leaves a shadow isn't the event per se - it's the kind of irredeemable shitbag we're shown that Mei is through those events. I figure you're coming at this in good faith, but the reality is Mei is a horrible person. There's no "making the best" out of it, especially if she's evidently remorseless.

That anyone would defend it is a little repulsive to me, but mostly because - whether they realize it or not - defenders of abusers use the same arguments almost word for word and are often just covering for their own abusiveness when doing so. I'm not saying you are, of course - plenty of people unfortunately believe and repeat the nonsensical and dangerous idea that if you just stay with the abuser for long enough you'll get "a good relationship" out of it, or perhaps most horrifying of all that abusive relationships are normal and you should expect nothing better.

Like I said, the entire story afterwards, regardless of how "romantic" it's marketed as being, just reads as the tragedy of a girl unable to escape an abuser.

Full disclosure: I was never abused. I have a loving, healthy relationship with my close family. My father WAS abused. Decent people make sure their families don't inherit their suffering, shit people use their suffering as an excuse to perpetuate it. I know this because I've lived it, so arguing about "oh the abuser is just a broken person boo hoo" has always rung incredibly hollow to me. The deciding factor isn't brokenness, it's being a shit person.

I don't completely agree that the faux incest is a much smaller problem, because it is the plot device that traps Yuzu with Mei in the first place. Sexually abusive siblings are a real thing. Once again, I just cannot see Citrus as romance. Maybe some sort of yuri hell nightmare tragedy for Yuzu where the only way to survive in a land alien to her that considers her alien to it is to appease the abuser she's trapped with legally.

Is horror tragedy a genre?

Wall of text, incoming! Again. Apologies in advance.

It's possible I'm being more lenient due to it being a fictional situation (especially as for some reason I'm overly empathic[?] towards fictional characters) and perhaps naively wanting things to work out for the characters. But either way I guess it largely comes down to whether one believes people can change or not. If you consider her irredeemable from the start, then yeah, the story won't have much to offer.

I fully agree what Mei did was obviously wrong, but I don't see it as irredeemable. All of them are bad, but there's many different severities of sexual assault. Two or three forced kisses rates on the lesser side. Folks like rapists on the other hand should be shot straight into the vacuum of space. Different punishments for different crimes and all, that's the basis for the entire justice system after all. If every wrongdoing is irredeemable by default we'd have no option but to incarcerate every criminal for life since no one can ever be "rehabilitated"?

At this point I also feel like I gotta ask if you've read the full story? I'm kind of unsure based on the things you've said. Since for sure whether one has or hasn't will affect the viewpoint on their dynamic. For my part I never felt Yuzu was quite as badly trapped like that. She in fact does her best to get Mei to come back because the latter actually leaves their shared apartment with no intention of coming back, thus "freeing" Yuzu, as it were.

As for my own disclosure I've never been abused either, at least physically. There's one important non-familial relationship that was emotionally abusive in a sense sometimes, but that changed over time. It still hurts to remember many of the things that happened; it's just that the current state of the relationship still offers me more than the bad memories take away. Maybe it's in part this viewpoint/experience that makes me feel I understand Yuzu's actions in accepting Mei despite the less than stellar beginning?

So to me it does remain a romance as well as a story of healing/redemption. I really don't mean this as any sort of endorsement of/excuse for abusive behavior either no matter how it may seem, and it's definitely not an ideal romance by any stretch - but not an unbelievable one either. Fluffy romances most definitely have their place, but I feel that so do the less fluffy ones as an occasional counterpoint.

I do wish I was better at explaining myself... I probably come off as some sort of creep again especially given the length of my posts (when I just try to be thorough), but alas. Anyway, I guess we've gone quite off the rails given this is a thread for an entirely different manga. Eep. But at this rate I'll have to re-read Citrus just to make sure my own recollection of the events in it isn't entirely off the mark...

 

[goldenbwitch]

That last panel, lol. You tell her Yuzu