Sousou no Frieren - Vol. 2 Ch. 14 - Articulate Monsters
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@Redsaint
Strongly disagree; while it would be possible to keep them alive, what possible motive would there be? Not to mention it leaves numerous problems behind, namely;
Population control. How would you limit in the first place? Even assuming a slow birth rate, that would correspond with a longer lifespan. Why? Well, name a species with a slow birth rate and short lifespan. They don't work together, and lead quickly to extinction. Eventually, they would either have to stop breeding, or you would have to cull the population. Both could result in rebellion, conflict, and further death.
Control, or the illusion of it. Where would they live? Their own villages? They would quickly spread out of control, conflict on a small scale quickly instigating conflict on a large scale. In slums, or prisons? Well... that's a lot of expense done solely for the purpose of preserving what are essentially an entire race of sociopaths. Admittedly, this might not be the case for all of them, but every demon shown so far is indeed a sociopath by human standards, complete with a desire to consume humans/elves/dwarves and so on.
Lastly, what's the point? Just because they're intelligent, that doesn't somehow make them inherently worth preserving. In truth, they're even more dangerous, and living alongside them is even more pointless BECAUSE of their intelligence. Confine them? They'll seek ways out. Banish them? They'll build nations and return in force. Control them? You can't; in the end, they'll seek, and find freedom, and then you'll have the same results; war.
Certainly the demon on panel agrees with Frieren; they are monsters that speak. These things aren't worth saving. They speak to deceive, they deceive so they can eat, or consume. I assume it would be possible to keep one or two under some form of control, if it was very, very strict. But... it's the equivalent of keeping a predatory beast as a pet. You're not making a friend. They aren't friends; they're literal monsters, by their own admission. Honestly, even most predators would show more empathy than these have so far...
Strongly disagree; while it would be possible to keep them alive, what possible motive would there be? Not to mention it leaves numerous problems behind, namely;
Population control. How would you limit in the first place? Even assuming a slow birth rate, that would correspond with a longer lifespan. Why? Well, name a species with a slow birth rate and short lifespan. They don't work together, and lead quickly to extinction. Eventually, they would either have to stop breeding, or you would have to cull the population. Both could result in rebellion, conflict, and further death.
Control, or the illusion of it. Where would they live? Their own villages? They would quickly spread out of control, conflict on a small scale quickly instigating conflict on a large scale. In slums, or prisons? Well... that's a lot of expense done solely for the purpose of preserving what are essentially an entire race of sociopaths. Admittedly, this might not be the case for all of them, but every demon shown so far is indeed a sociopath by human standards, complete with a desire to consume humans/elves/dwarves and so on.
Lastly, what's the point? Just because they're intelligent, that doesn't somehow make them inherently worth preserving. In truth, they're even more dangerous, and living alongside them is even more pointless BECAUSE of their intelligence. Confine them? They'll seek ways out. Banish them? They'll build nations and return in force. Control them? You can't; in the end, they'll seek, and find freedom, and then you'll have the same results; war.
Certainly the demon on panel agrees with Frieren; they are monsters that speak. These things aren't worth saving. They speak to deceive, they deceive so they can eat, or consume. I assume it would be possible to keep one or two under some form of control, if it was very, very strict. But... it's the equivalent of keeping a predatory beast as a pet. You're not making a friend. They aren't friends; they're literal monsters, by their own admission. Honestly, even most predators would show more empathy than these have so far...
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I think i will not let myself trap with what what Frieren said....
Let's see whether this demon truly wicked creatures or not...
Let's see whether this demon truly wicked creatures or not...
@anifd
Nooo? I'm saying that there's no way that common folk would have the information that Flamme and by extension Frieren has. How is a village chief in the countryside supposed to know about the true nature of demons?
Or like I said, they don't want to kill what looks like a little girl with horns that just called out for her mother, and he's just coming up with excuses because typically adults and adults with children don't want to kill children.
"Not necessarily" indicates uncertainty vs "Not necessary". One is "might not", the other "is not", additionally what the chief said is worded as a question instead of a statement. If it was "She doesn't necessarily need to eat humans to survive.", then it's a statement of fact, but "She doesn't necessarily need to eat humans to survive, right?" shows he's pleading and seeking affirmation, and trying to persuade the townsfolk to let her be spared. Which is still him talking out of his ass because if he DID have knowledge on demons he wouldn't have made that assertion and just said, "kill the bitch" (paraphrased). If you have access to the raw, tell me does the original text indicate surety or uncertainty?
Flamme classifying "articulate monsters" as "demons" makes the semantics a moot point though, because Flamme basically asserted that the two are related. 魔物 became 魔族. The Phantom 魔物 shares physical similarities with 魔族 Qual, and neither of those two share physical similarities with the 魔族 Aura. Also I thought 魔物 was "malicious thing/creature" and 魔族 "malicious race/tribe/clan"
No? where the fuck did you get the impression that I thought you were insulting them, I was making a simple comment on why I thought "corrupt priest" works better.
Nooo? I'm saying that there's no way that common folk would have the information that Flamme and by extension Frieren has. How is a village chief in the countryside supposed to know about the true nature of demons?
Or like I said, they don't want to kill what looks like a little girl with horns that just called out for her mother, and he's just coming up with excuses because typically adults and adults with children don't want to kill children.
"Not necessarily" indicates uncertainty vs "Not necessary". One is "might not", the other "is not", additionally what the chief said is worded as a question instead of a statement. If it was "She doesn't necessarily need to eat humans to survive.", then it's a statement of fact, but "She doesn't necessarily need to eat humans to survive, right?" shows he's pleading and seeking affirmation, and trying to persuade the townsfolk to let her be spared. Which is still him talking out of his ass because if he DID have knowledge on demons he wouldn't have made that assertion and just said, "kill the bitch" (paraphrased). If you have access to the raw, tell me does the original text indicate surety or uncertainty?
Flamme classifying "articulate monsters" as "demons" makes the semantics a moot point though, because Flamme basically asserted that the two are related. 魔物 became 魔族. The Phantom 魔物 shares physical similarities with 魔族 Qual, and neither of those two share physical similarities with the 魔族 Aura. Also I thought 魔物 was "malicious thing/creature" and 魔族 "malicious race/tribe/clan"
No? where the fuck did you get the impression that I thought you were insulting them, I was making a simple comment on why I thought "corrupt priest" works better.
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Worst thing that modern histories suffer is the lack of true evil characters, aways being misinterpreted or just different
When the truth is that we have a way to separate good and evil... if they respect the next as self-owning individuals or not.
Slavery, machism, racism, and any other ism is basically that, just with a target group
When the truth is that we have a way to separate good and evil... if they respect the next as self-owning individuals or not.
Slavery, machism, racism, and any other ism is basically that, just with a target group
@tuatara1
You're engaging in circular reasoning though, and thus incorrectly elevating a "result" into a "value". "Fear of other" is only bad to the extent that the other should not, in fact, be feared. In your examples "fear of other" was all unjustified because humans are genuinely humans, racism is wrong because there genuinely is no substantive difference in potential between humans due to melatonin in skin or minor phenotypic differences. Humans are humans. But if/when we deal with things that aren't human, it'd be equally wrong to apply to same standards. Some things really are worth being exceptionally cautious above.
And we're rapidly approaching the point (if not there already) of this being a real thing. Think about all the AI work going on at megacorps, all of which is directed primarily at more efficient money generation. Corporations themselves can in some ways be considered super organisms that can take actions beyond any of their individual human components thanks to diffusion of decision making and responsibility. Fantasy and fiction can provide a mirror to that too, in 10 years if we attempt to regulate marketing/spam bots and some neural net "claims" that "we're engaging in xenophobia!" there will be a really serious debate to be had. It's really important to respect sentience, but what if a neural net was simply trained as a black box to make statements that would "tend to reduce regulation" and ingested a few petabytes of data and now spits out the results of its blackbox. It's real core goal remains "look for weak humans and extract as much money as possible from them", but "preventing intervention by authorities" itself can be a feed factor for that goal. If an advanced marketing AI says being afraid of it is the same thing as humans did leading to genocide, well, now what?
You're engaging in circular reasoning though, and thus incorrectly elevating a "result" into a "value". "Fear of other" is only bad to the extent that the other should not, in fact, be feared. In your examples "fear of other" was all unjustified because humans are genuinely humans, racism is wrong because there genuinely is no substantive difference in potential between humans due to melatonin in skin or minor phenotypic differences. Humans are humans. But if/when we deal with things that aren't human, it'd be equally wrong to apply to same standards. Some things really are worth being exceptionally cautious above.
And we're rapidly approaching the point (if not there already) of this being a real thing. Think about all the AI work going on at megacorps, all of which is directed primarily at more efficient money generation. Corporations themselves can in some ways be considered super organisms that can take actions beyond any of their individual human components thanks to diffusion of decision making and responsibility. Fantasy and fiction can provide a mirror to that too, in 10 years if we attempt to regulate marketing/spam bots and some neural net "claims" that "we're engaging in xenophobia!" there will be a really serious debate to be had. It's really important to respect sentience, but what if a neural net was simply trained as a black box to make statements that would "tend to reduce regulation" and ingested a few petabytes of data and now spits out the results of its blackbox. It's real core goal remains "look for weak humans and extract as much money as possible from them", but "preventing intervention by authorities" itself can be a feed factor for that goal. If an advanced marketing AI says being afraid of it is the same thing as humans did leading to genocide, well, now what?
@SunSun i said i wouldnt be replying here further in my last comment, however, clarification i guess? most of my response will be in the spoiler because length
----Yes, flamme asserts that they’re related, but she didn’t say they were the same. If she thought they were the same would there a point to going out of the way to make a different classification for them by calling them mazoku instead? That supports that this universe considers mamono and mazoku different.
You said it’s a moot point to argue the difference between mamono and mazoku in this reply now, but you brought up first how the text specifically said the phantom was a demon. I only responded in kind and corrected you but then it becomes a moot point? Do you notice how you’re also arguing wording in the third paragraph of your reply?
----Genuinely wondering whether you're telling me your interpretation of 魔物 and 魔族 you’re learning Japanese or because you want to prove a point? If it’s something you actually want clarification on, then I’ll tell you that interpreting a word’s meaning from the kanji too literally is a common mistake. Like how 目玉焼き means sunny-side fried egg, but it’s kanji literally tells you its fried eyeball. Not saying that it’s always wrong to do so obviously because kanji are the way they are for a reason and help with the interpretation of a word most of the time.
So my weeb is going to jump out for this. Yes, 魔 means malicious, and 族 means family/tribe, but it also means demonic/demon so I can understand why you would think 魔物 and 魔族 are interchangeable. 人間や善神（神族）に敵対する種族（悪魔、妖怪、怪物など）の総称として用いられる場合もあれば、特定の一種族を指して言う場合もある。後者の場合であっても、その特徴は作品によって異なり. basically says that there are works where they are considered interchangeable while at the same time other works do not consider them the same, basically dependent on the individual.
However, like I already said, I don’t consider them to be the same because you can’t tell me slimes and goblins (who are referred to as 魔物 instead of 魔族 in most works, much like how they’re referred to monsters in the western world) are demons instead of monsters.
To clarify further, kirei cake did translate 魔物 as monster when the phantom discussion came up with fern. However, later in the chapter kirei cake translates it to demon because 幻想鬼 (Phantom Oni) is the specific type of mamono he is. Which, depending on the translator again, can stay as oni or get translated to demon in English . Again, something I don’t agree with because it’s like saying a kappa is an overgrown turtle.
With that said, if you aren't actually curious about the distinction between 魔族 and 魔物 and you brought it up to defend yourself when I disagreed with you saying qual and the phantom were both demons and that they just specialized differently while looking different then here’s my response. you said they looked different so im sure you noticed how only the 魔族 have horns? The phantom did not because in the manga he’s classified as 魔物. Frieren says he is. if you say that the phantom's horns are obscured from view because of his hands, notice how qual who frieren specifically refers to as mazoku has large horns on the side of his head? as do the other demons in this chapter.
----Yes, I know the village chief said that because he didn’t want to kill her. Why else would he try to persuade frieren to let her go if he did want to kill her? Does me going on to explain that he had a basis for his assumption render me unaware of the reason he said it? No offense intended, but if English isn’t your first language then say so I can clarify more. If it is, then just continue reading.
If you think he was pulling it out his ass and it wasn’t information that the villagers agreed with to some degree, then wouldn’t there be more protest from residents and not just frieren? The unknown is feared, and we all know how that causes in people a tendency to reach an extremity in both their thinking and actions. The villagers didn’t. Because they had some basis not to. The hero party, village chief, and even the couple (for a moment) hesitated and pitied the demon girl, but they still kept a level of caution because not all logic was thrown out the window because of sympathy as the hero party stayed and the couple didn’t exactly welcome her with open arms so they didn’t blindly accept her either.
-----And I didn’t say with certainty that you did. If I was sure you thought that way I wouldn't have ended it with just asking if that was the case Just like how you were making a simple comment, I was simply clarifying clarifying in the event that it was the case. I wouldn't be reading their translations if I thought that way
----I can’t, which is why I conceded my point about there being less room for misinterpreting the village chief’s line. My words: “So it goes back to both our comments being assumption/personal interpretation of the chapter which brings discussion to a halt until the next release. " in response to you saying it couldn't be certain whether she really did need to kill to survive or if the village chief's words were right.
Because, like you, I based my arguments on what I was given from the chapters. Being that the app is one chapter behind the magazine and releases later, that uncertainty (while we don’t agree whether or not it’s a necessity for demons to eat humans for survival) was the very reason I said this discussion halts until next release.
if you consider this solely a competition instead of a discussion then don't @ me again for next chapter or this one if you're heated because I wont respond. otherwise, go ahead should more arises from the next chapter onwards.
----Yes, flamme asserts that they’re related, but she didn’t say they were the same. If she thought they were the same would there a point to going out of the way to make a different classification for them by calling them mazoku instead? That supports that this universe considers mamono and mazoku different.
You said it’s a moot point to argue the difference between mamono and mazoku in this reply now, but you brought up first how the text specifically said the phantom was a demon. I only responded in kind and corrected you but then it becomes a moot point? Do you notice how you’re also arguing wording in the third paragraph of your reply?
----Genuinely wondering whether you're telling me your interpretation of 魔物 and 魔族 you’re learning Japanese or because you want to prove a point? If it’s something you actually want clarification on, then I’ll tell you that interpreting a word’s meaning from the kanji too literally is a common mistake. Like how 目玉焼き means sunny-side fried egg, but it’s kanji literally tells you its fried eyeball. Not saying that it’s always wrong to do so obviously because kanji are the way they are for a reason and help with the interpretation of a word most of the time.
So my weeb is going to jump out for this. Yes, 魔 means malicious, and 族 means family/tribe, but it also means demonic/demon so I can understand why you would think 魔物 and 魔族 are interchangeable. 人間や善神（神族）に敵対する種族（悪魔、妖怪、怪物など）の総称として用いられる場合もあれば、特定の一種族を指して言う場合もある。後者の場合であっても、その特徴は作品によって異なり. basically says that there are works where they are considered interchangeable while at the same time other works do not consider them the same, basically dependent on the individual.
However, like I already said, I don’t consider them to be the same because you can’t tell me slimes and goblins (who are referred to as 魔物 instead of 魔族 in most works, much like how they’re referred to monsters in the western world) are demons instead of monsters.
To clarify further, kirei cake did translate 魔物 as monster when the phantom discussion came up with fern. However, later in the chapter kirei cake translates it to demon because 幻想鬼 (Phantom Oni) is the specific type of mamono he is. Which, depending on the translator again, can stay as oni or get translated to demon in English . Again, something I don’t agree with because it’s like saying a kappa is an overgrown turtle.
With that said, if you aren't actually curious about the distinction between 魔族 and 魔物 and you brought it up to defend yourself when I disagreed with you saying qual and the phantom were both demons and that they just specialized differently while looking different then here’s my response. you said they looked different so im sure you noticed how only the 魔族 have horns? The phantom did not because in the manga he’s classified as 魔物. Frieren says he is. if you say that the phantom's horns are obscured from view because of his hands, notice how qual who frieren specifically refers to as mazoku has large horns on the side of his head? as do the other demons in this chapter.
----Yes, I know the village chief said that because he didn’t want to kill her. Why else would he try to persuade frieren to let her go if he did want to kill her? Does me going on to explain that he had a basis for his assumption render me unaware of the reason he said it? No offense intended, but if English isn’t your first language then say so I can clarify more. If it is, then just continue reading.
If you think he was pulling it out his ass and it wasn’t information that the villagers agreed with to some degree, then wouldn’t there be more protest from residents and not just frieren? The unknown is feared, and we all know how that causes in people a tendency to reach an extremity in both their thinking and actions. The villagers didn’t. Because they had some basis not to. The hero party, village chief, and even the couple (for a moment) hesitated and pitied the demon girl, but they still kept a level of caution because not all logic was thrown out the window because of sympathy as the hero party stayed and the couple didn’t exactly welcome her with open arms so they didn’t blindly accept her either.
-----And I didn’t say with certainty that you did. If I was sure you thought that way I wouldn't have ended it with just asking if that was the case Just like how you were making a simple comment, I was simply clarifying clarifying in the event that it was the case. I wouldn't be reading their translations if I thought that way
----I can’t, which is why I conceded my point about there being less room for misinterpreting the village chief’s line. My words: “So it goes back to both our comments being assumption/personal interpretation of the chapter which brings discussion to a halt until the next release. " in response to you saying it couldn't be certain whether she really did need to kill to survive or if the village chief's words were right.
Because, like you, I based my arguments on what I was given from the chapters. Being that the app is one chapter behind the magazine and releases later, that uncertainty (while we don’t agree whether or not it’s a necessity for demons to eat humans for survival) was the very reason I said this discussion halts until next release.
if you consider this solely a competition instead of a discussion then don't @ me again for next chapter or this one if you're heated because I wont respond. otherwise, go ahead should more arises from the next chapter onwards.
Fed-Kun's army
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oh god, 200+ comments, things gonna be either spicy, philosophical, or playing with word-politics here in the comment section.
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@penizz
From what I've seen they're no more evil than a cat or a eagle would be if they could speak.
They have no capacity for evil, like the european lion or the iberian wolf, they're just another predator that needs to be culled.
Also your defenition of evil encompasses all of humanity, you included, that's very christian of you.
From what I've seen they're no more evil than a cat or a eagle would be if they could speak.
They have no capacity for evil, like the european lion or the iberian wolf, they're just another predator that needs to be culled.
Also your defenition of evil encompasses all of humanity, you included, that's very christian of you.
Active member
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yea this is why this is such a great manga.
I think what make it novel is not that it subverts the common twist but that it inverts it. There are still shows where demons are depicted as evil but its rare to see an inversion of the usual twist of demons just being humans with horns and their conflicts with humans are just because humans are racist. Instead the humans are open minded and think that humans and demons aren't that different and wish to make peace. But in reality the demons mindset are way to different from humans to make peace and that they just want to trick humans and eat them
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Let's not forget that the "classical" demons of Western philosophy, being either directly from or based upon Christian theology, are mostly if not entirely divine or sacred beings or representatives of other cultures that Christianity wanted to paint as "lesser" or "worse." The concept of demons being "just like us, but different" isn't modern reinterpretation, it's baked into the classical portrayal of demons at its heart. "Demons are just evil and there is no changing that," is therefore effectively the more modern interpretation, and its implementation was deliberately used from the beginning to dehumanize actual people.
This story appears to be (emphasis because we don't know yet what future chapters will reveal) using the "demons are just evil and there is no changing that" portrayal for its purposes. That's fine, and I like how it's going so far, but let's stop pretending it's something it's not.
This story appears to be (emphasis because we don't know yet what future chapters will reveal) using the "demons are just evil and there is no changing that" portrayal for its purposes. That's fine, and I like how it's going so far, but let's stop pretending it's something it's not.
