The Day I Decided to Make My Cheeky Gyaru Sister Understand in My Own Way - Ch. 4 - The Day My Gal Sister Stepped Out

[BuyVelomobiles]

Oh nice! Thank you for that!

Honestly though I'm just glad to see it getting posted so people can see what all the talk is about.

Since you did me the favor of showing me the shitty translation, I'll do you the favor of forwarding you the good one.

 

[Sionnach91]

About the whole NTR thing, I still think it's borderline (how much hentai is there of a family member being stolen out of their role in the family, and not just because the MC was interested), but if we take the author at face value and accept it's not NTR, what is the alternative?

Making your FEMC a slut just to have the MC fix her? Have a two faced story wher the MC is being nice to her but she keeps going back to get fucked? That's not exactly a bright move when she's not being forced and enjoys it.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

(how much hentai is there of a family member being stolen out of their role in the family, and not just because the MC was interested)

What?

Making your FEMC a slut just to have the MC fix her? Have a two faced story wher the MC is being nice to her but she keeps going back to get fucked? That's not exactly a bright move when she's not being forced and enjoys it.

We're supposed to believe she doesn't enjoy it... until the fanbox hits; then she's grinding and savoring the moment before demanding to get fucked harder, like a feral beast. Got that?: Not fanbox? Poor baby. Fanbox? Horny slut. Clear as mud? Good.

P.S.: It's been, like, three days. All MC did was give her some water, feed her once, then ask if she's coming home for dinner. THIS is the "fixing" arc?!

 

[Eighty-six]

LOL USED GOODS IS CRAZY

Straight Outta Mercari

(I don't exactly think that of her, I just wanted to say something funny to that)

Got that?: Not fanbox? Poor baby. Fanbox? Horny slut. Clear as mud? Good.

Is the canon supposed to be split between the regular release and the Fanbox extras?

That's strange to think about. If the story was initially supposed to be straightforward [needs correction 💢💢💢], I'm not creative enough to imagine how much story there would be outside the Fanbox. My understanding of this kind of content scheme up to now has been that what's in the Fanbox is completely prurient to the point of being able to be unknown or ignored.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Nah I only saw 2 words from the girl, one saying "kimochii/it feels good" and one on final page saying "motto/more".

I knew the white bubbles on the pages I saw were from the guys only. I just remembered you said she was actively commenting so I wanted to check the dialogue I missed.

Since you went out of your way to be honest with me, allow me to return the favor: I went ahead and did the fanbox chapter- with the regular chapter included, and posted it. Right at the start, the girl says she got FMC to come to the party by promising it would just be the two of them. So she didn't go specifically to get her insides rearranged.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Is the canon supposed to be split between the regular release and the Fanbox extras?

That's strange to think about. If the story was initially supposed to be straightforward [needs correction 💢💢💢], I'm not sure how much story there would be outside the Fanbox.

Split? Are you asking if the Fanbox is canon? Because it is. She did, in fact, enthusiastically participate in an NTR gangbang. These are no separate continuities. The artist turned the original "correction" non sexual, but still kept her as a slut, which made the story not work anymore.

 

[Eighty-six]

Split? Are you asking if the Fanbox is canon?

More so, I'm wondering how relevant the author conceived of the Fanbox entries being. How much is an earnest reader (with his pants on) intended to be missing because he chose to not buy this mangaka's manga OnlyFans?

She did, in fact, enthusiastically participate in an NTR gangbang.

This is probably besides the point, but there's no setup by the point of the Fanbox entry that makes it NTR. She and the male lead weren't going out with each other, blood relation (or lack thereof) aside.

It could have been "BSS", but the male lead "liking" her wasn't established in the first chapter-- or, was that affection established in the retracted Fanbox entry?

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

More so, I'm wondering how relevant the author conceived of the Fanbox entries being. How much is an earnest reader (with his pants on) intended to be missing because he chose to not buy this mangaka's manga OnlyFans?

The author? She probably imagines it being a fun diversion to make some money. The average reader? Oh boy, if only they knew what was in the Fanbox, their entire conception of the story would be shattered.

This is probably besides the point, but there's no setup by the point of the Fanbox entry that makes it NTR. She and the male lead weren't going out with each other, blood relation (or lack thereof) aside.

It could have been "BSS", but the male lead "liking" her wasn't established in the first chapter-- or, was that affection established in the retracted Fanbox entry?

Brother, I did the Fanbox chapter, along with the main chapter, and I've been obsessively linking to it for hours now. It's in the post just below your last one, and now it's in this one too. There's a whole page of "Woah, I bet your bro's into all of this, eh?! Hahaha, I wish I had a slutty sister too! Now stop grinding and put it in!" The entire premise continues to be that Bro is into Sis, and now it's trying to be a setup for a wholesome romance since incest sleep rape is off the table.

 

[Eighty-six]

Brother, I did the Fanbox chapter, along with the main chapter, and I've been obsessively linking to it for hours now. It's in the post just below your last one, and now it's in this one too.

you're expecting me to click on hentai links

There's a whole page of "Woah, I bet your bro's into all of this, eh?! Hahaha, I wish I had a slutty sister too! Now stop grinding and put it in!"

But that's what I was talking about. That has an NTR-ish tone in a vacuum, but the male lead and heroine aren't lovers, so the male lead isn't being "stolen from" when the heroine becomes her circle's bicycle. It could be BSS, but the guy (as you're phrasing him) wouldn't know if her brother likes her, and we don't get any indication by the end of the first chapter that he likes does-- he's making a presumption.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

you're expecting me to click on hentai links

You're the one asking, then commenting on the chapter you refuse to read. 🤷‍♂️

But that's what I was talking about. That has an NTR-ish tone in a vacuum, but the male lead and heroine aren't lovers, so the male lead isn't being "stolen from" when the heroine becomes her circle's bicycle. It could be BSS, but the guy (as you're phrasing him) wouldn't know if her brother likes her, and we don't get any indication by the end of the first chapter that he likes does-- he's making a presumption.

This is exactly the kind of argument the author made with people to insist it's not NTR. It didn't work then, and it's not working now. We're literally using different definitions here, and if I look up the tag on the funny number site, I can assure you, the tag covers what I'm talking about. Also, she didn't "Become" the bicycle here. There's a clear implication that this has happened before, since the girl had to make a promise for FMC to come at all. For all we know, she's talked about the brother extensively; which is supported by the fact that they know it's her younger brother, and that they're not related by blood. Who the hell just springs that on everyone on day 1?

 

[Eighty-six]

You're the one asking, then commenting on the chapter you refuse to read. 🤷‍♂️

I'm counting on you to discuss the Fanbox content because I don't want to read porn. In other words: I'm taking your word on the dialogue.

This is exactly the kind of argument the author made with people to insist it's not NTR. It didn't work then, and it's not working now.

Whether or not "people" accept that they're wrong has nothing to do with whether or not her (and I) are right. Very well before this web comic, the specific and concrete definition of "netorare" was agreed upon and so entrenched in otaku subculture, that "BSS" was coined to describe a circumstance that-- for many-- feels like netorare while definitionally not being so.

That was done, rather than expanding the definition of "netorare" to include what is now called "BSS".

It's worth considering that you're getting the exact same argument from someone who apparently loves NTR, and someone who's disgusted by it, and both of them are appealing to its definition rather than some vague sense or mis-categorizations that more than likely don't even come close to constituting the majority of NTR-tagged ero-manga on hentai sites.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

I'm counting on you to discuss the Fanbox content because I don't want to read porn. In other words: I'm taking your word on the dialogue.

I get you don't want to read porn, but you might want to go find a different story to consume, since the porn is canon and HEAVILY colors the SFW part.

Whether or not "people" accept that they're wrong has nothing to do with whether or not her (and I) are right. Very well before this web comic, the specific and concrete definition of "netorare" was agreed upon and so entrenched in otaku subculture, that "BSS" was coined to describe a circumstance that-- for many-- feels like netorare while definitionally not being so.

Telling me how the Japanese define "Netorare" is like telling the Japanese how we define the word "Bitch": You can do it until you're blue in the face, but I'm still calling this Netorare, and they're still calling FMC a Bitch. The term "BSS" just isn't popular. Nobody uses it, I don't like it personally, and I'm not going through the extra trouble of defining more words for people online when they already understand "NTR". Also, the Japanese readers were very much calling this "NTR", and "Close enough" when it all boiled over on X anyway: It's a controversial topic.

It's worth considering that you're getting the exact same argument from someone who apparently loves NTR, and someone who's disgusted by it, and both of them are appealing to its definition rather than some vague sense or mis-categorizations that more than likely don't even come close to constituting the majority of NTR-tagged ero-manga on hentai sites.

I can assure you, this is an uncomfortably common theme for stories tagged "NTR". EH even has a whole flow chart specifically covering this sort of scenario, and differentiating it from "Netori", and describing its overlap with "Cheating".

 

[InsidiousIntent]

@BuyVelomobiles @Eighty-six
For what it's worth, the subcategories, variations and twists of Netorare/Cheating/Slut genres aside(thats a rabbit hole I've dove into before, and found most at the bottom devoid of logic, reason and impartial critical thinking) this work turned into a mess primarily because the author is a mess. Changing the theme because of a prohibition on the monetization platform leaves me skeptical at best. Defending against it being NTR simply because you don't consider it so, implies a certain disconnect from reality (bottom line, ANYONE'S feelings don't necessarily change objective reality, nor in a more precise sense, change the "feel" or interpretation of an audience with regard to a particular piece of media). Regardless of intent, the final product sails easily into that category (primarily because of the FMCs reactions in the Fanbox content) I'm not discounting the "BSS" subcategory, but it has become that, a subcategory of the larger CONCEPT of NTR, regardless of technical or semantic definition. At this point, while I wouldn't be so arrogant to call it impossible to turn this into some sort of redeeming romance, I have ZERO faith in THIS author's ability to do so, nor do I believe anything would erase the "bad taste" left in the mouths of many readers, be it for content, thematic direction, the absolute mess of progression or the authors vituperation.

As a final note... From a purely personal viewpoint... If you have a vision of something, stay true to that, find a platform that supports what you're passionate about. Trying to shoehorn something you've already begun by radically altering it midstream seldom has positive results. You're much better off staying true to what you want to make, than chasing Yen through conformity.

 

[Eighty-six]

Telling me how the Japanese define "Netorare" is like telling the Japanese how we define the word "Bitch"

...but your disagreement about what netorare is, is firstly with a Japanese person.

There shouldn't be any consternation about her insistence, then, because you would understand that she has a different understanding of the Japanese term denoting a concept formulated and entrenched in Japanese pop culture.

Not that this is a difference caused by the way Americans have appropriated Japanese pop culture terms: by most accounts, there's agreement on the matter. Whether according to dictionary.com, TvTropes (please forgive me), KnowYourMeme (which also reports the likely origin of the term in otaku culture), japanesewithanime-- they say the same thing. When it's used in jokes in manga, it relies on the reader having the understanding that a concept similar to cuckoldry (meaning the concept requires infidelity) is being referenced. VNDB has broader guidelines than the ones I'm familiar with (that account for close associates and relatives), but they still don't coincide with your desired usage on account of its third and fourth prongs (they're not close, we see her hating him prior to her mixer, we haven't seen jealousy from him, and there's currently no apparent cause for jealousy from him). Even then, it considers netorare a subcategory of infidelity, but with the focus on the maelstrom of emotions associated with it.

I think I found that flowchart you were talking about, and the marked lack of interest that the heroine has for the male lead at the end of the first chapter disqualifies this as netorare even according to that.

Defending against it being NTR simply because you don't consider it so

I'm not "defending" it-- "defense" isn't necessary, since it's not any more "sinful" than any other hentai genre. I didn't even take the mangaka's insistence into account when I came to my own conclusion.

I'm not "simply" not considering it netorare-- I'm appealing to the popular definition of it, and the very origin of the term. I've even produced a source with broader guidelines than the ones I've been arguing with, and this still doesn't make that cut. How many more definition sources do I need to make my point?

This manga is certainly something. It doesn't need to be pegged with "netorare" before one knows they don't like it, but it just isn't netorare by any established definition of the term.

I'm not sure why the original plan had to be revamped to this extent because management didn't like the incest attribute-- surely, a simple 義 would have sufficed to make it kosher.

 

[InsidiousIntent]

...but your disagreement about what netorare is, is firstly with a Japanese person.

There shouldn't be any consternation about her insistence, then, because you would understand that she has a different understanding of the Japanese term denoting a concept formulated and entrenched in Japanese pop culture.

Not that this is a difference caused by the way Americans have appropriated Japanese pop culture terms: by most accounts, there's agreement on the matter. Whether according to dictionary.com, TvTropes (please forgive me), KnowYourMeme (which also reports the likely origin of the term in otaku culture), japanesewithanime-- they say the same thing. When it's used in jokes in manga, it relies on the reader having the understanding that a concept similar to cuckoldry (meaning the concept requires infidelity) is being referenced. VNDB has broader guidelines than the ones I'm familiar with (that account for close associates and relatives), but they still don't coincide with your desired usage on account of its third and fourth prongs (they're not close, we see her hating him prior to her mixer, we haven't seen jealousy from him, and there's currently no apparent cause for jealousy from him). Even then, it considers netorare a subcategory of infidelity, but with the focus on the maelstrom of emotions associated with it.


I'm not "defending" it-- "defense" isn't necessary, since it's not any more "sinful" than any other hentai genre. I didn't even take the mangaka's insistence into account when I came to my own conclusion.

I'm not "simply" not considering it netorare-- I'm appealing to the popular definition of it, and the very origin of the term. I've even produced a source with broader guidelines than the ones I've been arguing with, and this still doesn't make that cut. How many more definition sources do I need to make my point?

This manga is certainly something. It doesn't need to be pegged with "netorare" before one knows they don't like it, but it just isn't netorare by any established definition of the term.

I'm not sure why the original plan had to be revamped to this extent because management didn't like the incest attribute-- surely, a simple 義 would have sufficed to make it kosher.

I was referring to the authors defense.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

@BuyVelomobiles @Eighty-six
For what it's worth, the subcategories, variations and twists of Netorare/Cheating/Slut genres aside(thats a rabbit hole I've dove into before, and found most at the bottom devoid of logic, reason and impartial critical thinking) this work turned into a mess primarily because the author is a mess. Changing the theme because of a prohibition on the monetization platform leaves me skeptical at best. Defending against it being NTR simply because you don't consider it so, implies a certain disconnect from reality (bottom line, ANYONE'S feelings don't necessarily change objective reality, nor in a more precise sense, change the "feel" or interpretation of an audience with regard to a particular piece of media). Regardless of intent, the final product sails easily into that category (primarily because of the FMCs reactions in the Fanbox content) I'm not discounting the "BSS" subcategory, but it has become that, a subcategory of the larger CONCEPT of NTR, regardless of technical or semantic definition. At this point, while I wouldn't be so arrogant to call it impossible to turn this into some sort of redeeming romance, I have ZERO faith in THIS author's ability to do so, nor do I believe anything would erase the "bad taste" left in the mouths of many readers, be it for content, thematic direction, the absolute mess of progression or the authors vituperation.

As a final note... From a purely personal viewpoint... If you have a vision of something, stay true to that, find a platform that supports what you're passionate about. Trying to shoehorn something you've already begun by radically altering it midstream seldom has positive results. You're much better off staying true to what you want to make, than chasing Yen through conformity.

Thing is, with a tiny handful of retcons, this story can be turned into a tragic tale of a young woman, living a self-destructive life; the consequences of her actions catching up to her, and her brother showing her the way.
The first fanbox only really needs three changes to gel with the rest of the story:

1) She needs to stop talking: The fact that she's not only speaking, but also expressing pleasure and enthusiasm basically kills our pity for her.

2) She needs to be crying: Quiet sobbing while the guys are (now that she's not expressing interest) just pressuring her to keep going further just seals her as a poor, exploited victim who's just a bit too agreeable to stand up for herself, and leave bad situations.

3) She needs to forget: They got her REALLY drunk (They were doing it on purpose anyway), and she just has a sense that something bad happened last night. The rest of the story now remains largely unchanged.

Author doesn't even need to get rid of the moans, or the grinding, or change any of the guys' dialogue. Just those three changes fix it, probably.

Then in Chapter 4, she an still go back to pick up whatever it is she forgets. She can have that bad feeling, which explains her reluctance to go in, and all he has to do to get the blowjob is either blackmail her with a video, or (better yet) threaten to exclude her BEFORE she blows him. At this point, there's room for either the full act, or her brother messaging her at the right time to steel her resolve to leave; the message that she's finally learned self-respect coming across better, now that there isn't CUM DRIPPING DOWN HER CHIN

BAM. Tell me that's not already leagues better. And all this is, what, a couple of speech bubbles replaced with "..." instead of "IT FEELS SO GOOD" and "HARDER! HARDER", and some tears added in on top of the already-existing image. Maaaybe change the dialogue in page 3 to have them faux comforting her, instead of talking about MC?

...but your disagreement about what netorare is, is firstly with a Japanese person.

There shouldn't be any consternation about her insistence, then, because you would understand that she has a different understanding of the Japanese term denoting a concept formulated and entrenched in Japanese pop culture.

If that's your rebuttal, then you should probably rebut the part where the Japanese audience was split on the issue, since, you know, some people actually address the point, and not nitpick about exact technical definitions, and whether BSS is a subset of NTR, or some separate thing with its own unique essence.

This is a romance story between the sister and the brother. What the guy said in the Fanbox would be random shit talking... if it were real life. But this is a story, and every line has a purpose. This is what people call a "reference". She's making a reference to the original story, while also using it as an excuse to clarify that they're not related anymore. It's also a form of foreshadowing, since random statements made by people are specifically crafted to be referenced later on in the work: There are no random utterances.

 

[InsidiousIntent]

That's a potential fix... But that doesn't remove the stain of this mess as is, and the author seems more likely to double down and make it cyclical. Of course, it's possible it's all intentional... Which would actually raise my estimation of her, economically at least, nothing attracts attention like controversy. @BuyVelomobiles

 

[Eighty-six]

If that's your rebuttal, then you should probably rebut the part where the Japanese audience was split on the issue,

Multiple people are capable of being wrong about something at the same time, for whichever reasons. Even that they're Japanese doesn't automatically grant them authority on Japanese pop culture-- especially if they contradict it, as in this case.

The concept of netorare predates this web manga. It requires infidelity-- in the biggest stretch of the term, it requires a favorable relationship. Critically, it requires a sense of someone "being taken away" (thus the term). By the time she goes to get gangbanged, she doesn't have a good relationship with her stepbrother, and he doesn't indicate favorable thoughts of her. She isn't set up as someone that's being "taken away" from him at this point-- she's not "his" in any sense.

Favorable thoughts from him come up in chapters 2 and 3-- such thoughts are news to her, and cause her to start reevaluating her relationship-- her being the group bicycle was presumably done when she felt she had no place in the family, given her dialogue in chapter 2. Chapter 4 follows from that, with the heroine being willing to step away from being her group's bicycle.

To illustrate my point: if she goes back to being the group bicycle after any improvement of her relationship with her stepbrother, that's at least in the ballpark of netorare. Especially if it puts the kibosh on the aforementioned development.

This is a romance story between the sister and the brother.

Most likely. However, any such romance has yet to manifest.

It's also a form of foreshadowing, since random statements made by people are specifically crafted to be referenced later on in the work: There are no random utterances.

You can't really have an expectation of writing prowess from someone whose writing you've spoken poorly of up to this point. And me, personally? I'm not inclined to expect anything on par with standard manga from Twitter/Pixiv mangaka.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Multiple people are capable of being wrong about something at the same time, for whichever reasons. Even that they're Japanese doesn't automatically grant them authority on Japanese pop culture-- especially if they contradict it, as in this case.

So... you say the Japanese have a different understanding of NTR, and that my disagreement is with a Japanese author, who, by implication, has that "Japanese understanding" of NTR, but then also, if any Japanese also agree it's NTR, they're wrong, because they're not authorities on Japan's Pop Culture... I don't know why you're appealing to definitions that clearly aren't what you think they are. Do you decide what NTR is, or do they? What exactly is the basis for this other than "Years ago, people used the word a certain way"?

Spoiler: She locked her replies to just mentions. These are the closest things to sycophants she's got. Guess what the replies are doing

If you guessed "Freaking out, calling NTR, and demanding a rewrite", you'd be right

 

[InsidiousIntent]

I think it

Multiple people are capable of being wrong about something at the same time, for whichever reasons. Even that they're Japanese doesn't automatically grant them authority on Japanese pop culture-- especially if they contradict it, as in this case.

The concept of netorare predates this web manga. It requires infidelity-

I think there's something to be said here for the difference between technical definition and concept/category/spirit of a thing. I've seen "fluffy" technical NTR that doesn't evoke the slightest typical response, and plenty of works that aren't technically NTR that make the blood boil and the stomach curdle in disgust. So I suppose the issue is what TRULY defines contemporary NTR, is it defined by the feelings it evokes, or by a strict definition of relationships? In the end, and in the absence of a better term, it's likely both, and easy to say that it all falls into a category akin to "Stolen".

Edit: Realistically, such an adjective combined with " Cheating" or "Forced" or the usual suspects "Mind Control" and "Blackmail" would be more accurate in the least.