The Day I Decided to Make My Cheeky Gyaru Sister Understand in My Own Way - Ch. 4 - The Day My Gal Sister Stepped Out

[Eighty-six]

So... you say the Japanese have a different understanding of NTR, and that my disagreement is with a Japanese author, who, by implication, has that "Japanese understanding" of NTR, but then also, if any Japanese also agree it's NTR, they're wrong, because they're not authorities on Japan's Pop Culture...

There's two issues at hand:

1) In Japanese pop culture, there's an established meaning of "netorare" that predates and exists independently of the people talking about this particular manga.

2) You originally argued on the grounds that there's a difference between how the Japanese and Americans would employ the same term "netorare". I pointed this out because if you're making that point, you shouldn't be consternated when the mangaka argues that what she depicted wasn't NTR, because you already acknowledge that she has a different definition on account of being Japanese and you not being Japanese. It's a wasteful discussion...

2a) ...but then, non-Japanese definitions of NTR largely coincide with this original (and current) Japanese definition of NTR, and they certainly exclude your definition. The very flowchart you alluded to excludes your usage.

Also, I consciously let slide the fact that you chose to simultaneously refer to "language shift" as justification while appealing to the identification some Japanese readers made of this being NTR, when doing the latter would have obviated any point of the former (since the issue wouldn't be "language shift").

I don't know why you're appealing to definitions that clearly aren't what you think they are. Do you decide what NTR is, or do they?

Some hundreds of Japanese readers of a specific web manga are not altogether authorities of a term referring to a concrete concept that's been delineated and codified for at least 20 years.

So I suppose the issue is what TRULY defines contemporary NTR, is it defined by the feelings it evokes, or by a strict definition of relationships?

The feelings it invokes have always been understood to be a product of its objective definition. Anybody can feel the feelings associated with NTR over practically anything-- but you can't build a definition around such an internal reality.

It's akin to when some American manga readers identify a manga as "seinen" not according to its actual definition (it was published in a seinen magazine, and is thus designated by the publisher to be marketed towards young adults), but according to their personal appraisal of its maturity, theme complexity, and "darkness". Their appraisal is rooted in their personal perception (and is bound by their breadth of knowledge and even their own maturity), it's absolutely debatable, and it's accordingly a more murky means of categorization compared to the original, actual, and substantially more cut-and-dry definition the Japanese use.

 

[Nut-ius]

Im not sign up for this, at first she unwillingly drink or something, then suddenly this chapter, she willingly do bj like bro, no blackmail, no threat, and most pathetic excuse "She got pressured" bro if hes holding knife or gun, then im fine, but he is not. Stop with this stockholm syndrom thingy, its annoying. This girl is beyond broken, shes belong to the street.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

1) In Japanese pop culture, there's an established meaning of "netorare" that predates and exists independently of the people talking about this particular manga.

2) You originally argued on the grounds that there's a difference between how the Japanese and Americans would employ the same term "netorare". I pointed this out because if you're making that point, you shouldn't be consternated when the mangaka argues that what she depicted wasn't NTR, because you already acknowledge that she has a different definition on account of being Japanese and you not being Japanese. It's a wasteful discussion...

2 only came up, because you brought up 1. And 1 is irrelevant, because people are calling it NTR here, and over there, there's a big fight over what exactly this is. But even then, they agree it's icky in that same vector. Your appeal to some "Japanese Pop Culture" concept is the waste. It's NTR. Everyone here agrees, and even her sycophants agree there. End of discussion.

Some hundreds of Japanese readers of a specific web manga are not altogether authorities of a term referring to a concrete concept that's been delineated and codified for at least 20 years.

So people don't define words. Got it.

 

[InsidiousIntent]

The feelings it invokes have always been understood to be a product of its objective definition. Anybody can feel the feelings associated with NTR over practically anything-- but you can't build a definition around such an internal reality.

It's akin to when some American manga readers identify a manga as "seinen" not according to its actual definition (it was published in a seinen magazine, and is thus designated by the publisher to be marketed towards young adults), but according to their personal appraisal of its maturity, theme complexity, and "darkness"-- their personal appraisal is rooted in their personal perception, it's absolutely debatable, and it's accordingly a more murky means of categorization compared to the original, actual, and substantially more cut-and-dry definition the Japanese use.

Again, I have no issues with regards to applying a strict definition, but as with many things in language, especially when it comes to things that don't necessarily have a "cut and dry definition". Also, language, and concepts evolve, even in the Japanese usage, language and culture. This very scenario has provided evidence of that. Few subjective things, like any medium of art, adhere to strict definitions, or even necessarily remain defined as such for long in a societal or cultural sense. Admittedly mainstream Japanese cultural shifts slower than Western, but thats not surprising considering the age, nuance, structure and rituals. But it does, has and will continue to shift.

If you took a sampling of how manga readers defined NTR, you'd get a statistically interesting spread, especially if you diverged it by demographic.

Ah, the rabbit hole. Either way, it's safe to say that the current changes this author is wrestling with alienated quite a few readers, from everywhere... Really, it just matters what size demographic she wants... And considering the monetization aspect, I'd say she'd be better served by avoiding what's considered NTR by many, regardless of whether or not it fits a strict, or even her personal definition. Telling someone an apple is fruit might be technically correct, but if they want an orange, they're still not going to buy your damn apple.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Again, I have no issues with regards to applying a strict definition, but as with many things in language, especially when it comes to things that don't necessarily have a "cut and dry definition". Also, language, and concepts evolve, even in the Japanese usage, language and culture. This very scenario has provided evidence of that. Few subjective things, like any medium of art, adhere to strict definitions, or even necessarily remain defined as such for long in a societal or cultural sense. Admittedly mainstream Japanese cultural shifts slower than Western, but thats not surprising considering the age, nuance, structure and rituals. But it does, has and will continue to shift.

If you took a sampling of how manga readers defined NTR, you'd get a statistically interesting spread, especially if you diverged it by demographic.

Ah, the rabbit hole. Either way, it's safe to say that the current changes this author is wrestling with alienated quite a few readers, from everywhere... Really, it just matters what size demographic she wants... And considering the monetization aspect, I'd say she'd be better served by avoiding what's considered NTR by many, regardless of whether or not it fits a strict, or even her personal definition. Telling someone an apple is fruit might be technically correct, but if they want an orange, they're still not going to buy your damn apple.

TL;DR: Even if we agreed it's not "NTR", it's definitely "NTR enough".

P.S.: A better analogy: "Telling someone a tomato is a fruit might be technically correct, but I still don't want it in my fruit salad"

 

[InsidiousIntent]

TL;DR: Even if we agreed it's not "NTR", it's definitely "NTR enough".

P.S.: A better analogy: "Telling someone a tomato is a fruit might be technically correct, but I still don't want it in my fruit salad"

Maybe, but since they're selling content...😉

 

[Eighty-six]

2 only came up, because you brought up 1.

It doesn't matter why 2) came up, because arguing that there's a "language shift" involving this word should make you more understanding of where the mangaka is coming from, and conclude that contention as functionally irreconcilable-- not lead to you being irate that she would dare to insist that this isn't netorare.

And 1 is irrelevant, because people are calling it NTR here,

Where's "here"? The 2-4 people in this thread? I gave four citations-- one from a database of Japanese VNs-- that contradict your usage. I pointed out that the flowchart that you alluded to contradicted your usage, as well.

[...]and even her sycophants agree there.

And she disagrees with them, while styling herself a lover of netorare. And the documented definitions disagree with said sycophants (taking your word for it) and the people "here", while likely agreeing with her.

You're appealing to an impression of specific people in a specific Japanese audience (a vanishingly small sample size, in the greater context of the otaku community that ultimately spawned this term), while also appealing to a supposed controversy over the definition of netorare in the Japanese otaku community... in order to claim that this is objectively netorare.

You're appealing to a controversy to support an attempt at an objective statement. There's no reason why that shouldn't inspire lack of certainty.

So people don't define words. Got it.

On the contrary, I'm asserting that people have defined this word, and the usage of the term has remained fairly constant since.

Pardon the heavy request: struggle to imagine someone actually looking for a netorare work. Don't you think it'd be important to them that when they pick up an AV or doujin with such a tag, they can be assured that they're going to be consuming a story where a relationship between lovers is wrecked because of some circumstance leading to one party becoming attached to a certain infidelity, the "loser" either becoming aware of this or outright witnessing the act?

Not a guy who didn't ask someone out, only to get beaten to the punch in his idleness or cowardice?

Not a guy who has no good relationship with someone who goes to orgies without his knowledge?

Also, language, and concepts evolve, even in the Japanese usage, language and culture. This very scenario has provided evidence of that.

Again, vanishingly small sample size in the greater context of the Japanese otaku community... against several concurring definitions on both sides of the ocean that also concur with the mangaka at hand who considers herself a fan of netorare.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

It doesn't matter why 2) came up, because arguing that there's a "language shift" involving this word should make you more understanding of where the mangaka is coming from, and conclude that contention as functionally irreconcilable-- not lead to you being irate that she would dare to insist that this isn't netorare.

The mangaka is in the generation where the shift occurred. She's also trying to have her cake and eat it too, by saying it's "only a little", according to @DaBoySwag77 　. It's a recurring theme in all of this. Besides, things like "racism" have had a language shift too. Doesn't matter how much I appeal to the fact that I'm not technically expressing any views regarding the superiority of any particular race, I'm pretty sure you'd call me a racist for running down the street shouting slurs at the top of my lungs.

And she disagrees with them, while styling herself a lover of netorare. And the documented definitions disagree with said sycophants (taking your word for it) and the people "here", while likely agreeing with her.

The closest thing to sycophants. They're people she's mentioned, and she's only allowed people she's mentioned to reply. The only way we could get a more selected sample is if her own mother came on to tell us all that her daughter is right that this isn't NTR.

Pardon the heavy request: struggle to imagine someone actually looking for a netorare work. Don't you think it'd be important to them that when they pick up an AV or doujin with such a tag, they can be assured that they're going to be consuming a story where a relationship between lovers is wrecked because of some circumstance leading to one party becoming attached to a certain infidelity, the "loser" either becoming aware of this or outright witnessing the act?

Not a guy who didn't ask someone out, only to get beaten to the punch in his idleness or cowardice?

Not a guy who has no good relationship with someone who goes to orgies without his knowledge?

You've described three different genres of NTR. Everything you just said would be tagged "NTR", and you'd find all of them eventually if you had the stomach to look.

There's the obvious "Insert NTR pro/antagonist here. Cue mind break and cuck show"

There is an entire NTR manga that begins with the guy (unintentionally, that first time) nabbing the hottest girl in school out from under his friend's nose literally as he was preparing to make the confession. This friend had already expressed that he was going to do it, and was just waiting for the opportunity. And then it goes on to yet more degeneracy that I've since bleached out of my mind.

And what do you mean "No good relationship"? Because depending on what exactly you mean, that's at least the entire second episode of Garden, if not the entire OVA. Come to think of it, that was also probably in that manga I mentioned, but again: I bleached it out of my mind.

Again, vanishingly small sample size in the greater context of the Japanese otaku community... against several concurring definitions on both sides of the ocean that also concur with the mangaka at hand who considers herself a fan of netorare.

The "vanishingly small size" is only vanishingly small because she locked her everything after everyone started complaining about NTR, and asking if the work is NTR, and tagging it NTR, etc.

 

[thedinowarrior]

Yo yall would do great in debate club 😭😭

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Yo yall would do great in debate club 😭😭

I've seen what those look like these days; no we would not.

 

[Hhsbnjirf]

She really did got railed on chapter 2😔

 

[Eighty-six]

The mangaka is in the generation where the shift occurred.

Was that before my time? In the last 15 years, there hasn't been much of a shift in the conception of netorare.

Besides, things like "racism" have had a language shift too. Doesn't matter how much I appeal to the fact that I'm not technically expressing any views regarding the superiority of any particular race, I'm pretty sure you'd call me a racist for running down the street shouting slurs at the top of my lungs.

Would we not be in agreement that not using the term as it's defined would pave the way to it being reduced to uselessness?

Just because language shift happens, doesn't mean that all instances of it need to be abided. But, in this situation, even the arguable expansions of meaning of the term "netorare" don't encapsulate what's the mangaka chose to depict. Well--

And what do you mean "No good relationship"? Because depending on what exactly you mean, that's at least the entire second episode of Garden, if not the entire OVA.

I mean the heroine's first words to the male lead in this manga are brisk and dripping with venom, even if it's because she doesn't think she has a place in the family. If this situation fits the NTR schema, then why wouldn't any relationship?

She really did got railed on chapter 2😔

It's very sad.

Alexa, play--

 

[Sionnach91]

Funny thing is that the author could have perfectly have it both ways if only she didn't scramble to change things or if the initial point wasn't sexual correction, just normal caring.

Start with the MC caring and then have the fanbox chapters be either his imagination of what she could be up to so late at night, or what would have happened if not for his influence. Then make them her dreams about him, then make it reality.

 

[2hot4you]

This story really doesn't deserve as many comments as this got

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Was that before my time? In the last 15 years, there hasn't been much of a shift in the conception of netorare.

There has. You're just insisting it hasn't, and that everyone that gave the author grief is "wrong", despite the fact that we all agree it is what it is.

Would we not be in agreement that not using the term as it's defined would pave the way to it being reduced to uselessness?

No. Seems to be a pretty useful term for the phenomenon. I go in, I see girl get railed; I hate slut girl, and I feel bad for guy. Maybe even feel a bit jealous with guy. It was true for the hard NTR you keep appealing to, and it goes for the other categories too. It's just that the first, and most obvious, reason to feel bad for a guy when a girl gets railed is when it's his wife or something.

Here we've got something that, at the barest of minimums, went through all the motions an NTR story goes through, where FMC is a slut, getting railed by scumbags, probably with bigger dicks, who disrespect MMC, and she enjoys herself. As @DaBoySwag77 put it: "We're just missing the cuck show". We're literally just missing MC being present by coincidence, or by some kind of design, and jerking himself off in tears over the sight of the girl.

The point of a tag is to capture a certain experience, not detail the literal, factual properties of a scene. We have a "Rape" tag, but nobody would go out and tag every single loli/shota work on the planet as "rape", despite the fact that they're children, incapable of giving consent, no matter how enthusiastic they are. Because the point of the "Rape" tag isn't the literal capacity for consent, or even the exact level of reluctance the character shows, but rather it's for a story where the characters in question specifically don't want whatever is happening, regardless of their ability to consent. An adult woman who somehow literally can't notice she's being fucked wouldn't count as rape either, no matter how how much she would hypothetically dislike what's happening, if she realized.

I mean the heroine's first words to the male lead in this manga are brisk and dripping with venom, even if it's because she doesn't think she has a place in the family. If this situation fits the NTR schema, then why wouldn't any relationship?

Because the author makes it clear in her Fanbox that MC is interested in her. You dismiss the entire third page where they disrespect MC, but the author made it entirely intentionally, for a purpose. A dumb purpose, sure, but it's there, and you need to actually heed the author's message, no matter how retarded. Your only defense here is that maybe the author rolled a D20 and landed on "Randomly imply Bro's interest/incest rape" for the NTR men's dialogue for the page.

Start with the MC caring and then have the fanbox chapters be either his imagination of what she could be up to so late at night, or what would have happened if not for his influence. Then make them her dreams about him, then make it reality.

Bare minimum, make it rape or something. If she just didn't start talking, and also had some tears in her eyes, the rest of the story still works. Getting raped while you're blackout drunk also excuses why she went back, since she could barely remember.

 

[Kriosfear]

Pardon the heavy request: struggle to imagine someone actually looking for a netorare work. Don't you think it'd be important to them that when they pick up an AV or doujin with such a tag, they can be assured that they're going to be consuming a story where a relationship between lovers is wrecked because of some circumstance leading to one party becoming attached to a certain infidelity, the "loser" either becoming aware of this or outright witnessing the act?

Not a guy who didn't ask someone out, only to get beaten to the punch in his idleness or cowardice?

Not a guy who has no good relationship with someone who goes to orgies without his knowledge?

I'm going to give my two cents here as someone who likes NTR:

I don't mind getting those works or anything similar when I'm in the mood for NTR, because they all give me exactly the kind of feeling I'm looking for. What I do mind is getting those types of works when I'm filtering out NTR. Whether or not it's technically NTR—a genre with an unclear definition that's still being debated by the same people who create and enjoy it—doesn't matter to me at all. It's still way too close for comfort.

NTR to me is the H equivalent of spicy food. I don't like it when my seemingly harmless order turns out to be spicy despite there being next to no indication whatsoever, let alone when I'm expecting something else altogether and the cook decides to nonchalantly burn a hole in my mouth because they don't consider what they made spicy.

To sum it up, what matters to me is how it feels; ultimately, that's what defines the genre for me and many others. It's far better to err on the side of caution and call it NTR, lest the people who dislike it dive right into it unknowingly.

 

[Eighty-six]

There has. You're just insisting it hasn't, and that everyone that gave the author grief is "wrong", despite the fact that we all agree it is what it is.

You can't simultaneously maintain that there's controversy over the definition of the term, and also that "[you] all" agree.

I go in, I see girl get railed; I hate slut girl, and I feel bad for guy. Maybe even feel a bit jealous with guy.

Why do you feel bad for/jealous with guy? You have no indication guy actually likes girl by the point of the Fanbox extra, and the one interaction you see between the two prior to that point is antagonistic.

As @DaBoySwag77 put it: "We're just missing the cuck show".

"The cuck show" is literally-- not figuratively, literally the core of netorare.

You can't have netorare without cuckoldry-- that's like having pizza with no cheese OR sauce.

Because the author makes it clear in her Fanbox that MC is interested in her. You dismiss the entire third page where they disrespect MC, but the author made it entirely intentionally, for a purpose.

1) The heroine and male lead still have no favorable relationship by that point.

2) According to you, the guy is postulating. He doesn't actually know if the male lead likes the heroine, meaning that the most that one could presume was told to these guys is that she has a younger (step-)brother that she talks about with them. In the same way she talks to him? In a more affectionate way? No indication either way, but the essence of his words is that he figures the male lead must have a thing for her ("because why wouldn't he", I'm supposing the implication is).

To sum it up, what matters to me is how it feels; ultimately, that's what defines the genre for me and many others. It's far better to err on the side of caution and call it NTR, lest the people who dislike it dive right into it unknowingly.

You're under no obligation to give it a specific label, much less an unfitting one. It's sufficient to explain yourself with "this isn't what I came for, whatever this is".

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

You can't simultaneously maintain that there's controversy over the definition of the term, and also that "[you] all" agree.

Sure I can, by just identifying myself with the people that agree with me. In English "All" doesn't always mean "Literally everyone involved", but can be a partial category. We have two groups, I'm in one camp, and I can call everyone in only my came "All", while excluding everyone outside of it. The point is that we see the thing, and we immediately establish it as NTR; we have the same understanding of what we're looking at, and what we call it.

Why do you feel bad for/jealous with guy? You have no indication guy actually likes girl by the point of the Fanbox extra, and the one interaction you see between the two prior to that point is antagonistic.

Third page. You can close your eyes, and plug in your ears, but this is the crux of the issue.

You can't have netorare without cuckoldry-- that's like having pizza with no cheese OR sauce.

A sign of someone who avoids hentai like the plague. By that logic Himawari wa Yoru ni Saku isn't NTR. There's no cuck show there either, but now I guess you'll appeal to the marriage. There's no winning with you. Everyone else understands it's NTR, but you've got this weird, autistic obsession with this narrow definition of yours, when the idea's moved past that ages ago.

It's ridiculous that you point out examples you isn't aren't NTR... only to find out they're actually tagged as such, then retreat back to "Well they didn't express interest"... only to find out the story set that up in the very cuck scene, then now finally going back to "Well they're not in a relationship"... which is your final bastion, and the entire thing everyone else stopped caring about.

2) According to you, the guy is postulating.

No. The exact opposite. If you're going to see me say "The author is establishing MC's interest" and come out with that thinking I'm saying it didn't, then I'm not talking about this anymore.

You're under no obligation to give it a specific label, much less an unfitting one. It's sufficient to explain yourself with "this isn't what I came for, whatever this is".

Luckily, we have a label: NTR

 

[Eighty-six]

In English "All" doesn't always mean "Literally everyone involved", but can be a partial category.

I know English-- I'm more familiar with people using that kind of language to fabricate an overwhelming consensus.

Third page. You can close your eyes, and plug in your ears, but this is the crux of the issue.

That doesn't answer why you feel bad for/jealous with him. The protagonist doesn't even have grounds to be jealous, this early in the narrative-- he's set on treating her as the family she thought she didn't have, as far as we've been made aware.

By that logic Himawari wa Yoru ni Saku isn't NTR. There's no cuck show there either, but now I guess you'll appeal to the marriage.

Why isn't it just "cheating"? Not all infidelity is netorare.

It's ridiculous that you point out examples you isn't aren't NTR... only to find out they're actually tagged as such, then retreat back to "Well they didn't express interest"... only to find out the story set that up in the very cuck scene, then now finally going back to "Well they're not in a relationship"... which is your final bastion, and the entire thing everyone else stopped caring about.

Can you rephrase this? I don't know what you're complaining about here, or what you're referencing.

No. The exact opposite.

"Postulate" means "to assume or claim as true, existent, or necessary".

I'm not saying that you're saying that the author isn't establishing the protagonist's interest-- I'm disagreeing with your assertion, because your own recapitulation doesn't have the guy being certain about what he's saying.

If he knew that the protagonist had interest in the heroine, and he indicated that he knew, then it would at least vaguely be in the ballpark of netorare because then there'd be some favorable relationship being invoked (even if it wasn't mutual and fully realized).

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

That doesn't answer why you feel bad for/jealous with him. The protagonist doesn't even have grounds to be jealous, this early in the narrative-- he's set on treating her as the family she thought she didn't have, as far as we've been made aware.

You feel bad for him because they're talking shit about him while they take the object of his affections with her eager consent. She's literally grinding her clit into the dude's cockhead the whole time, and slowly sinking down. And it only escalates from there.

Why isn't it just "cheating"? Not all infidelity is netorare.

Because the difference between "Cheating" and "Netorare" is that in "Cheating" the cuck is more an idea than a character. A husband, or childhood friend might be mentioned in passing, or just logically present outside of the narrative. NTR involves making the cuck an actual person, often by featuring their direct witnessing and responding to the situation, but also often by degrading them in the middle of the act. Bonus points if the NTR slut starts saying things like "Don't say that about hiiiim", and "I feel sorry for my [cuck], but I can't live without this anymooooore".

And yeah, I'd say going out of your way to be like:

"HA. I bet he wishes he were fuckin' this, amirite, bois? plap plap plap plap How's that feel, baby, you likin' it?"
"Yes daddy! Harder, daddy!"

is pretty fucking degrading.

Can you rephrase this? I don't know what you're complaining about here, or what you're referencing.

You: "That's not NTR"
Me: "We agree it is"
You: "That's not the definition"
Me: "When lots of people use a word the same way, that's a definition."

If he knew that the protagonist had interest in the heroine, and he indicated that he knew,

This is a ridiculous requirement, and I'm not going to entertain it. By that logic, it's not NTR is the bull doesn't know about the husband. And I assure you, I'd be exactly as disgusted, in the exact same way, regardless of his knowledge on the subject.

Since you like TVTropes, let me remind you that Tropes Are Flexible.