The Day I Decided to Make My Cheeky Gyaru Sister Understand in My Own Way - Ch. 4 - The Day My Gal Sister Stepped Out

[BuyVelomobiles]

Should that feeling be accommodated in the understanding of either "cheating" or "cuckoldry"?

Brother, did you just hear someone tell you "NTR" is "Cuckolding", and "Cheating", and just imagine the concepts mapped onto each other perfectly? Because this is all I can imagine at this point. You're arguing with the Japanese, a JP TL, and some German guy about the definition of NTR like it's an exact match for the western concept of "Cheating" and "Cuckolding", and none of us have ever picked up a dictionary. They're not the same words. The overlap is coincidental. The concept of NTR is that the girl is being stolen away sexually somehow.

Incidentally: What's your first language?

 

[Eighty-six]

Brother, did you just hear someone tell you "NTR" is "Cuckolding", and "Cheating", and just imagine the concepts mapped onto each other perfectly?

Is there a reason why you didn't quote the rest of the hypothetical?

 

[HoangDinh]

Is that a reference to something? 😅

ambatukam

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Is there a reason why you didn't quote the rest of the hypothetical?

Because it all goes back to your treating NTR like a literal, perfect translation of the words, rather than just an equivalent.

Also because I was more interested in asking what your first language was.

 

[Eighty-six]

Because it all goes back to your treating NTR like a literal, perfect translation of the words, rather than just an equivalent.

No, it doesn't, because I don't. I linked/referenced and appealed to at least 4-5 citations of the definition of the term well before this point, two of them being systematic definitions from Japanese pop media catalogues.

You just took a question out of the context of a hypothetical meant to illustrate a general point about word usage.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

No, it doesn't, because I don't. I linked/referenced and appealed to at least 4-5 citations of the definition of the term well before this point, two of them being systematic definitions from Japanese pop media catalogues.

Ok. You wanna be dumb? You want me to use your stupid definition sources? FINE. BEHOLD:

BUT LET ME GUESS: IT DOESN'T AGREE WITH TVTROPES AND KNOWYOURMEME, SO NOW JAPANESEWITHANIME IS WRONG TOO, RIGHT?! I'm wrong, the Japanese are wrong, @DaBoySwag77 is wrong, Japanesewithanime is wrong after it contradicted you, nhentai is wrong. Yeah, you alone understood the "true" definition the first time, and the rest of us morons just never actually figured it out.

You just took a question out of the context of a hypothetical meant to illustrate a general point about word usage.

Actually, I just took the opportunity to ask you your first language. You've been terrified to answer for some reason.

 

[Eighty-six]

Ok. You wanna be dumb? You want me to use your stupid definition sources? FINE. BEHOLD:

BUT LET ME GUESS: IT DOESN'T AGREE WITH TVTROPES AND KNOWYOURMEME, SO NOW JAPANESEWITHANIME IS WRONG TOO, RIGHT?!

Calm down a little.

Well before now, I acknowledged and accepted that the VNDB definition had looser guidelines than other definitions I cited as well as the one I was most familiar with, so that means that the japanesewithanime definition aligns with the VNDB definition. Meanwhile, the flowchart you cited, from the wiki of a hentai catalogue, has stricter definitions than either of those two.

I have been talking while actively appealing to, citing, and discussing these definitions, so it's obvious that I'm aware that "netorare" doesn't straightforwardly mean "cuckoldry".

The point I've been making is that, even accounting for broader codified definitions (and I do account for broader definitions over the course of the conversation), there's nothing positive established between the male lead and heroine by the time she goes off to get a train run on her, in a way that you could say that she was "stolen" from the male lead-- not by accident, either, since the author's original plan was to have him have senseless sex with her (or, was it sleep molestation/rape?) in order to "make her understand" that she shouldn't be so cheeky with him (that's why the "metanarrative NTR" observation someone else was making several pages ago is spot on, in fact).

The current shape of the story has the heroine seeing a departure from the presumable status quo of being the group bicycle as she clings to her stepbrother, accepts she has a place in their family (something he's in the process of "making her understand") and perhaps blossom... some kind of romance-- which, if anything, is the opposite of what happens in netorare narratives. If one was so insistent, it'd be more proper to call it netori, but he isn't even using sex to win her over as it stands (or, based on what people are saying about the new Fanbox content, maybe he's laying down pipe in her dreams).

The point of my hypothetical (posed in a conversation where the use of the term is justified through people "feeling" that way) is that the pattern of something you're reacting to matters even more than your reaction: your oshi having a boyfriend isn't infidelity against you, no matter how much you feel that way. Conversely, your wife having sex with another man on your bed is infidelity, regardless of whether you're willing to call it that and regardless of whether you feel poorly about it.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

Calm down a little.

I will not calm down! We've been at this for days, and you keep autistically repeating "cuckolding" and "cheating" like that's the actual definition of the word, and ignoring real-world usage by natives, by foreigners, by the most popular hentai websites, and even your own sources, just so you can keep insisting that obvious NTR isn't NTR because you personally refuse to accept that nobody needs to be dating anyone for NTR to be a thing. And to make matters worse, you keep being asked a single, simple question and you refuse to even acknowledge it.

Well before now, I acknowledged and accepted that the VNDB definition had looser guidelines than other definitions I cited as well as the one I was most familiar with, so that means that the japanesewithanime definition aligns with the VNDB definition.

No it doesn't. Do you even read your own sources, brother?! VNDB has extremely strict, narrow definitions, and they're basically the only ones you're paying attention to.

I have been talking while actively appealing to, citing, and discussing these definitions, so it's obvious that I'm aware that "netorare" doesn't straightforwardly mean "cuckoldry".

No, you've been telling us all it's not NTR because they're not dating, and the brother himself hasn't professed his undying love for the sister in a romance story between the brother, and the sister! Don't piss in my mouth and call it beer! You insist, obsessively, that if there's no cuckoldry, it's literally anything but NTR:

"The cuck show" is literally-- not figuratively, literally the core of netorare.

You can't have netorare without cuckoldry-- that's like having pizza with no cheese OR sauce.

You haven't accounted for anything. You've ignored everyone, even your own source at this point, just to repeat the same bullshit about them needing to be in a relationship for this to be NTR. You don't actually read what you quote, pretend that two conflicting definitions actually agree with each other, and at this point, I'm starting to suspect you actually don't have the English skills needed to understand any of what you're saying.

(that's why the "metanarrative NTR" observation someone else was making several pages ago is spot on, in fact).

And no, it's literally NTR IN-UNIVERSE

 

[aboborazi]

Did she give the guy a blowjb?

probably

 

[Eighty-six]

We've been at this for days,

No, we weren't. We ended our conversation on the definition and usage of the term, talked about what you meant when you were talking about a "redemption arc", and ended that conversation. You decided to interject in a conversation I was having with someone else over his particular argument, taking out of context a question attached to a hypothetical. You used that unmoored hypothetical question in order to spring on me a novel accusation that-- had it actually been the case-- would have been brought up by you way earlier than now.

Do you think being visibly agitated and antagonistic-- sometimes about non-realities-- is going to make your points more salient or accepted? Do you think typing with Caps Lock on will accomplish that? Do you think looking for means to insult others is going to help you get any point across (don't even tell me you're not trying to get a point across)? I've already expressed that I don't want to have an antagonistic conversation with you. Not only have you been able to opt out of this conversation with me, and not only did you threaten to do so, you did opt out-- only to opt into another conversation I was having with someone else entirely on the topic you gave up on talking about with me.

and you keep autistically repeating "cuckolding" and "cheating" like that's the actual definition of the word, and ignoring real-world usage by natives, by foreigners, by the most popular hentai websites, and even your own sources, just so you can keep insisting that obvious NTR isn't NTR because you personally refuse to accept that nobody needs to be dating anyone for NTR to be a thing.

I'm begging you to fabricate a narrative of events that's even conceivably compatible with what I've said and emphasized.

Also, choose whether you want to claim that the definition of this term is controversial among Japanese otaku, or that it isn't and that it means what you're claiming and is properly used in the way you're using it.

VNDB has extremely strict, narrow definitions

KnowYourMeme and TvTropes have stricter definitions, because those definitions require the two parties to be lovers. E-Hentai limits it to romantic relationships and interest while categorizing the tag under infidelity. VNDB, while still categorizing it under infidelity, proposes a definition that accounts for some kind of positive relationship-- regardless of whether they're lovers.

No, you've been telling us all it's not NTR because they're not dating

Firstly, how is this compatible with me citing and repeatedly using the VNDB definition? Have you read the VNDB definition?

1. The protagonist's significant other, a very close friend, or in some cases, a close relative is stolen from him by someone seducing, coercing, blackmailing, outright raping them, or by using other techniques. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are literally stolen, but the negative feelings experienced by their significant other might make it seem so.

Secondly, what you're citing is how I started my part in this conversation. In the process of pulling up definitions, I accommodated the extent in the aforecited definition prong. The reason I don't accept your position is because I still disagreed with classifying this as netorare on account of there being no shown loving relationship whatsoever between the two characters by the time the heroine goes to the orgy:

VNDB has broader guidelines than the ones I'm familiar with (that account for close associates and relatives), but they still don't coincide with your desired usage on account of its third and fourth prongs (they're not close, we see her hating him prior to her mixer, we haven't seen jealousy from him, and there's currently no apparent cause for jealousy from him). Even then, it considers netorare a subcategory of infidelity, but with the focus on the maelstrom of emotions associated with it.

Emphasis mine.

That there is no positive relationship between the two prior to the orgy means there is no "stealing" of any kind-- not romantic, not familiar, not platonic, nothing. She starts out "belonging" to those sex mooks, not the protagonist. The protagonist doesn't indicate a time where she wasn't like this. He doesn't indicate jealousy, and he doesn't indicate anything about himself that-- if he found out-- would make him jealous or "stolen from". You could interpret his desire to be family with her to fit that bill, but that's only expressed after the orgy (does that mean the orgy is retroactively netorare), and the reason why she even goes out to orgies is because she already feels like she's not a part of the family. That's why her brother telling her dinner plans was the last push it took to drop the guy she finished blowing off.

Ironically, the protagonist's words to her in chapter 3-- and their effect as seen in that chapter and the next-- are setting the stage for him to "steal" her from the sex mooks, but because it's not done via sex, it's probably not even netori.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

No, we weren't.

Yes. "we".

You used that unmoored hypothetical question in order to spring on me a novel accusation that-- had it actually been the case-- would have been brought up by you way earlier than now.

YOU:

"The cuck show" is literally-- not figuratively, literally the core of netorare.

You can't have netorare without cuckoldry-- that's like having pizza with no cheese OR sauce.

ALSO YOU:

The point I've been making is that, even accounting for broader codified definitions (and I do account for broader definitions over the course of the conversation)

PICK

I'm begging you to fabricate a narrative of events that's even conceivably compatible with what I've said and emphasized.

What are you even asking for?

E-Hentai limits it to romantic relationships and interest while categorizing the tag under infidelity.

Firstly, how is this compatible with me citing and repeatedly using the VNDB definition? Have you read the VNDB definition?

Did you?! VNDB has four different criteria that all have to be met before a work is tagged NTR, while Knowyourmeme, and TVTropes just demand they be lovers. And why are we now ignoring Japanesewithanime? Because you also cited that one, and it clearly pointed out, in the context of education, that it, in fact, doesn't involve lovers, or a "positive close relationship".

Secondly, what you're citing is how I started my part in this conversation. In the process of pulling up definitions, I accommodated the extent in the aforecited definition prong. The reason I don't accept your position is because I still disagreed with classifying this as netorare on account of there being no shown loving relationship whatsoever between the two characters by the time the heroine goes to the orgy:

You start this bit by saying you account for the actual definition, then you follow up by immediately disregarding the definition, AND the story itself telling us that he's interested, in the next sentence.

The protagonist doesn't indicate a time where she wasn't like this. He doesn't indicate jealousy

And we've finally retreated all the way to VNDB, and ignoring all the others explicitly.

 

[Eighty-six]

Yes. "we".

Again, the comment you responded to never quoted you. This was your last comment to me before you interjected into the conversation I was having with someone else:

Italian. I bet it's Italian.

And I didn't respond to it.

You interjected yourself into another exchange.

YOU:

ALSO YOU:

PICK

1) Why would I have to pick? "Accounting for broader definitions (for the sake of argument)" is different from "accepting broader definitions". Remember that I originally considered whether this was "BSS" on account of the lack of reciprocal romantic relationship. To wit: more than "I'm right", I've been arguing "there's not enough that makes you not wrong".

2) I was loosely recapitulating the VNDB description for netorare:

This visual novel has scenes focused on Netorare. Netorare is more than a simple act of infidelity, but the fetishization of jealousy and other negative feelings commonly associated with it.

What are you even asking for?

For you to start accurately recounting this conversation, or at least convincingly misrepresent it.

¹ Does not apply if any of the following are true:
Lack of any romantic relationship between or interest from A to B. (emphasis mine)
It is merely a sexual interest/relationship.

Did you?! VNDB has four different criteria that all have to be met before a work is tagged NTR, while Knowyourmeme, and TVTropes just demand they be lovers.

...the first criteria VNDB stipulates allows them to have any positive relationship, compared to KYM and TvTropes that stipulate that they specifically have to be lovers, and E-Hentai that stipulates that the feelings between or from A to B have to be romantic.

So, yes, it has broader criteria despite having four enumerated ones, because the pool for prospective entries is larger.

And why are we now ignoring Japanesewithanime?

I already asserted that VNDB and japanesewithanime have aligning definitions. Why would I need to bring it up again?

You start this bit by saying you account for the actual definition, then you follow up by immediately disregarding the definition,

Literally impossible since I evaluate the narrative against the definition in order to judge whether the label applies. Again, recount this conversation correctly.

AND the story itself telling us that he's interested

You've consistently appealed to someone that was not him, who never met him, and who did not speak with certainty about his claim, while ignoring his actual stated desires in chapter 3 (which, along with handing her water, happens after the orgy that she left for when all that manifestly existed between the two was animus).

After the protagonist says that he wants to be family with her, she starts drifting away from the people who already "had" her from the beginning of the narrative (and during the orgy).

And we've finally retreated all the way to VNDB, and ignoring all the others explicitly.

...because I'm maintaining that it's the broadest of the definitions (alongside japanesewithanime), regardless of whether you agree. Those two are the codified definitions that don't preclude this relationship from consideration on account of them being family rather than lovers, and they're also the codified definitions that don't preclude this relationship from consideration on account of the (current) lack of express romantic interest between the two or from the protagonist to the heroine.

 

[Eighty-six]

-disregard, comment incorporated into previous comment-

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

And I didn't respond to it.

And the question I keep asking: What's your first language? I remember when I asked it. You threw a fit and insisted I was insulting you. And to this day, you're still avoiding it like the plague. I can only assume you're actually just using Google Translate to answer at this point.

To wit: more than "I'm right", I've been arguing "there's not enough that makes you not wrong".

Except the story itself setting up the NTR by telling us about the brother's interest.

So, yes, it has broader criteria despite having four enumerated ones, because the pool for prospective entries is larger.

A metric with one OR statement, and 3 AND statements is not more inclusive than one with two OR statements. It's literally "A, or B, Or C, AND 1, AND 1, AND 3. If any of these are negative, the subject is excluded from the category.

Which is the larger category: Women who are Feminists, or Actresses who are Feminists?

I already asserted that VNDB and japanesewithanime have aligning definitions. Why would I need to bring it up again?

" The protagonist's significant other, a very close friend, or in some cases, a close relative is stolen from him by someone seducing" does not align with "the gist of it is just: character A has some feelings for character B, then character C comes and takes them away, it could be A's hot teacher that was taken away by someone. It could be their mother, father, daughter, son, sister, brother, etc. It's just a matter of framing the idea of them "being taken" by someone else."

If you demand a "close" relationship, then we'd have to purge large chunks of NTR off basically everything. The framing is the "taking", and VNDB goes on and adds three AND statements on top of this, which make the category even more narrow.

You've consistently appealed to someone that was not him

Yes. The author is conveying information to us through him. We listen to him, because the author wants us to know about the brother. Otherwise we can just ignore that they're also not related by blood. Willful ignorance is not a defense. And we also have meta knowledge of the story too, which tells us that this is a romance between the brother and the slut, and the author herself making it clear that that's the intent.

 

[Eighty-six]

Except the story itself setting up the NTR by telling us about the brother's interest.

The brother says what his interest is, out of his own mouth in chapter 3. This is the part of the story that's generally accessible and SFW. The sex mook you keep invoking is not saying something he's certain about, and you have to pay to see those words.

The story is, if anything, setting up the heroine to be taken away from the sex mooks, which is where she started in this narrative.

A metric with one OR statement, and 3 AND statements is not more inclusive than one with two OR statements. It's literally "A, or B, Or C, AND 1, AND 1, AND 3. If any of these are negative, the subject is excluded from the category.

This is too abstract to be useful.

The point is, KYM and TvTropes' definitions are narrower than that for E-Hentai, which is narrower than those of VNDB and Japanesewithnanime because the latter two allow for more kinds of relationships-- beyond reciprocal-romantic-- to be considered, as long as they are some kind of close relationship.

The second prong is implicit to every definition cited except the E-Hentai one, the third prong is described in different words in every definition cited except the E-Hentai one, and the fourth prong is implicit to all definitions.

Yes. The author is conveying information to us through him. We listen to him, because the author wants us to know about the brother. Otherwise we can just ignore that they're also not related by blood.

Does the faceless, nameless guy who never met the brother know more about him than what he says from his own mouth? Even when the faceless, nameless guy isn't speaking with certainty, but the brother is?

In contrast, we can't ignore that they're not related by blood, because the sister literally says that they're not related by blood in a non-Fanbox chapter. Awareness of the faceless, nameless guy and his words are locked behind a paywall.

And we also have meta knowledge of the story too, which tells us that this is a romance between the brother and the slut, and the author herself making it clear that that's the intent.

But there was no setup for romance before she went to the orgy. Only animosity.

You're not being NTR'd because your current girlfriend had sex with her previous boyfriend before the she met you for the first ttime and the two of you started going out.

 

[MonstaMaps]

Was wondering why there was so many comments on this.. dear god, nobody actually cares about the accurate definition of ntr.
Go outside, touch some grass.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

The brother says what his interest is, out of his own mouth in chapter 3. This is the part of the story that's generally accessible and SFW. The sex mook you keep invoking is not saying something he's certain about, and you have to pay to see those words.

Denial. It's all you've got.

This is too abstract to be useful.

I know Logical Statements are hard. That's why I gave an example to make it easier.

E-Hentai, which is narrower than those of VNDB and Japanesewithnanime because the latter two allow for more kinds of relationships-- beyond reciprocal-romantic-- to be considered, as long as they are some kind of close relationship.

E-hentai is not a narrower statement. I just told you this. E-H needs A to be romantically interested in B, then B to have sex with C, voluntarily or otherwise.

VNDB needs A and B to be CURRENTLY close, AND loving, B needs to have sex with C, AND A needs to find out, AND feel jealous/hopeless "arisen from an inability to change anything".

E-H demands the person be stolen away somehow.

VNDB demands a full cuck show between people who are currently in a reciprocal relationship.

Maybe if you told me what your first language is, I'd be able to translate it into that for you.

Does the faceless, nameless guy who never met the brother know more about him than what he says from his own mouth?

You keep talking about the guy, again, like the author just rolled a dice and landed on "Have fuckboy randomly imply incest", and the brother sat down and explicitly told her that he has no romantic attraction for her... in a story specifically about the romance between them.

But there was no setup for romance before she went to the orgy.

Yeah, just right at the start, when she's already grinding on the guy's dick.

 

[Eighty-six]

Denial. It's all you've got.

I'm not denying anything. I've acknowledged both the words of the sex mook and the words of the brother.

You're the one that avoids talking about what the brother says with certainty in his own words, by using what the sex mook conjectures. You avoid talking about when he says it. You avoid talking about the grammatical mood of the words the sex mook said in the material you translated.

E-hentai is not a narrower statement. I just told you this. E-H needs A to be romantically interested in B, then B to have sex with C, voluntarily or otherwise.

VNDB needs A and B to be CURRENTLY close, AND loving, B needs to have sex with C, AND A needs to find out, AND feel jealous/hopeless "arisen from an inability to change anything".

1) Why are you emphasizing "currently"? They both require their close relationship to exist in the present. E-H doesn't permit "A was romantically interested in B". Of the two, VNDB allows this close relationship to be multiple kinds of positive ones.
2) VNDB's second prong reads thus:

2. The one who loses their loved one almost always finds out about the situation and suffers from jealousy and the feeling of helplessness arisen from an inability to change anything. The one stealing the lover and/or the stolen loved one might rub it in by humiliating the loser in private or in public.

That is to say, it's not a mandatory prong in its own right, but is implicit in every definition outside of the E-H one because all of these delineate the focus on the negative maelstrom of emotions that result from becoming aware of/viewing the act. The discovery may not happen, but if it does, it results in a particular kind of outcome.

You keep talking about the guy, again, like the author just rolled a dice and landed on "Have fuckboy randomly imply incest", and the brother sat down and explicitly told her that he has no romantic attraction for her... in a story specifically about the romance between them.

Just because a romance is proffered by the mangaka, doesn't mean that it manifestly exists at this specific juncture. To compare: just because you can predict that a heroine will have a tsundere-type character arc and come to love the protagonist, doesn't mean that said love already exists in the beginning of the narrative.

 

[BuyVelomobiles]

1) Why are you emphasizing "currently"? They both require their close relationship to exist in the present. E-H doesn't permit "A was romantically interested in B

Because the relationship needs to exist. Not in the past, like an ex, and not in the future, like a girl you're about to confess to.

That is to say, it's not a mandatory prong in its own right, but is implicit in every definition outside of the E-H one because all of these delineate the focus on the negative maelstrom of emotions that result from becoming aware of/viewing the act.

Every definition outside of E-H, the Japanese people's , mine, the other guy's, Japanesewithanime...

Just because a romance is proffered by the mangaka,

And the manga itself.

 

[Eighty-six]

Because the relationship needs to exist. Not in the past, like an ex, and not in the future, like a girl you're about to confess to.

...right. They both require the relationship that's to be wrecked, to exist in the present. There's no reason to emphasize the "currently" of the latter definition as if that's not inherent to both definitions.

Every definition outside of E-H, the Japanese people's , mine, the other guy's, Japanesewithanime...

Your point?

And the manga itself.

Yeah, that's... that's how the mangaka proffers the romance in the manga.

Through the manga.