The Flower That Was Bloomed by a Cloud
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@HotGirlShi
can’t you read english? i said i agreed with what the others that have interacted with you about this. but if you want to know my persepective about this, sure i’ll give it to you.
if dowun didn’t do what he did, to solely blame the mistake to his brother, then the one who would bear the punishment would be the whole clan. one person made a mistake, the whole community would bear the sin. that's the asian way back then. you can actually see this when dowun was explaining to fl of that event. “he took away the gift he gave you. do you not understand? as dogyeol’s punishment was shifted upon you, so was his crime. his majesty will never go back to you”, which means since fl is now affiliated with dowun's clan, she would also bear the consequences though she wasn't the culprit. also, all his efforts to teach her and engagement with her for the survival of the clan would amount to nothing.
then people would say, “but still it’s cruel of him to do his bro like that. how could you do that to your own family just for the sake of the clan?”. first of all, despite intentionally done or not, dowun’s bro made a mistake, so he should be responsible for it. second, in asian cultures especially in ancient times, there's this value where collective interest surpasses personal interest, meaning their life aren't just for them anymore. it's not my survival, but our survival. dowun needs to make sure this petty mistake would not influence the livelihood of their clan’s interest. he needed to put the clan’s interest first before his bro’s interest. it was necessary of him to do that. it is one of asia's core values that was taught to everyone, even to this day, though it's not as hardcore as it's used to be. you can still see today the example of south korean males of age, where they have to be enlisted no matter if individually, they want it or not. the interest of the country holds more power than personal interest.
it’s different with the western culture where you are encouraged to show your individuality. the more unique, the better. if you do this in ancient asia time, you would be deemed as rebellious. so, collectivism over individualism. but let’s say dowun defended his bro and reasoned his mistake as just a slip of the tongue. however, the king felt dissatisfied with it and exiled their clan, which means the clan’s interest is actually going further away from reaching their goal. what do you think would happen to dowun and his bro when they got back to the clan? do you think they would welcome them with warm feelings, say things like: “ah… it’s okay, champ. there’s always next year to reach our goal” and praise them for what they did?
also, it was because of politics. dowun needed to make sure that what he did would appease the king, so he could stay in the palace and do his works. that’s the politics back then. as the person affiliated with the offender, you need to satisfy the emperor first before anything else, wether you like it or not. because if he’s happy, you could live. if he’s not happy, he could just accuse you of things you didn’t do and chop your head. that’s the gist of it. and nobody would ever dare to disagree with that decision. that’s why, weak-minded and easily deceived people are not suitable to live in the palace. if the author really wanted to write the story as historically accurate as the old times, then it is understandable why he/she wrote dowun did that. dowun’s bro can’t understand this, then shame on him for being immature. looks like dowun’s bro would rather have his whole clan bear the sin of his mistake, than taking responsibility of his own mistake. yes yes, it’s sad he had to be punished because of being deceived, but mistake is a mistake nonetheless.
then another people would say, “but why should he left him alone in the rain like that? he could have just easily wait until the rain is over!” again, it’s palace politics. he needed to make an illusion that his brother has already repented his mistake and determined to be forgiven. that’s why you would see in other historical drama, someone would kneel for days in front of the head of the house’s room after making mistakes. also to gain sympathy of the palace people. to look more miserable is better. this is basic survival trick to live in the palace. you don’t to have to be ‘so in touch with emotions’ to know about this. everything is politics in the palace. then another would say again, “but he’s just a kid, that’s too harsh!!”. so if he’s a kid means he could never make mistakes? so if he’s a kid he should be forgiven for all his faults and never learn from it? maybe in western countries this could happen, but definitely not in asia. once you live in the palace, there are certain things you should never do. that was the law and nobody is exempted from that, even if you are old/young, rich/poor, royalty/commoner. make a mistake in the palace, then you have to be prepare to bear the consequences. even for commoners, if a child made mistakes, they would be punished by beating by the authority figure. that's just how asian raised their kids.
this is such a western thing to say. i’m a half-chinese and half-southeastasian, living in asia my whole life, so i’m familiar with asian culture and values. my grandma was pure chinese born in the year ’25. she told me that when she or her siblings made mistakes, they would be punished hard and that’s it. no parents, no siblings or elders would come to you and give you hugs and kisses as a console. nobody. children were expected to be mature on their own. if people in the 1920’s can do this, how do you think people that live in much older times raised their children? heck, even when i grew up in the 90’s, i would still get that treatment. ‘console your kids after punishing them’ is a fairly new concept that is introduced to asian households. mind you that i’m talking about asians living in asia, not asian-american or another asian families that has assimilated with western culture.
no, the fl asked for help first, to teach her how to read. she asked first, because she wanted to be something more than what she was at that moment, i quote about fl’s thoughts of dowun :”this child is around my age, but he’s already impressive. what can i do to be more like him.” then proceed the event when she asked his help and dowun asked back what she can give in returns. after that, the said proposal. yes, he took advantage of her situation, but didn’t force her. nobody forced her. even when dowun explained what kind of contract they would have, that it wouldn’t be based on feelings, she still agreed to it. nobody forced her. she took the proposal out of her own will, because she wanted to be “more like dowun” and also because she has already fancied dowun. she had desires but she couln’t do it because of her poor situation. i quote: “even if i wanted to, i probably wouldn’t have the opportunity to learn. my mother is gone, and nobody respects me. i was ignored even when i was in mortal danger, what can i do?”. she knew the proposal would allow her to be able to do those things. so, she did have done things for her own desires. and here you said she has never done anything once for herself. who’s in denial now? when dowun proposed, “i want to recover our clan’s glorious honor. i’ll also return it to you. what is yours as a royal. authority and power.”, she still didn’t refuse him. if she only wanted to be able to read, than she could just say “sorry, i only wanted to be able to read. no need for power or authority.” but she didn’t, because she wanted those things, too. how can i say this? because when dowun said to her, “do you wish to go back to that nearly broken down hut, to be ignored by even the lowest of the palace maids?”, she was silent because she didn’t want to go back to when she was still very miserable. if she really did affiliate with dowun only for being taught how to read, then at that time dowun said that, she would go right away to save the lil bro. she wouldn't care about losing favours with the king, as her goal, to be able to read, is already achieved. but that wasn't what happened, right?
again! another glorifying. first you said fl “sacrificed” everything for dowun, like she’s a saint who did all of those willingly without ever having any desires for herself or getting benefits in the process. now you said baekhan is innocent, like baekhan doesn’t have any faults at all. sure, he’s a nice guy, much nicer that dowun obviously, but innocent of any wrongdoings? no. what kind of innocent man would do things that were considered as inappropriate back then with someone that he’s supposed to guard in the palace? i could understand why honglyon did that, but what about him? what’s his excuse? love? omygod yes! how could i forget about this! it’s always been praiseworthy to choose love over your duty. that’s so professional of him. we all should strive to be as professional as baekhan in our job, so that we would be looked as innocent in public’s eyes.
i guess my explanation wasn’t clear enough. yes, dowun agreed to that, but as the queen, doesn't mean she could just act freely without any care. i don’t care who she has affairs with, but HOW she does her affairs. i want to show how this ambiguous relationship of hers would reflect poorly on her characters because she did it with no regards to her position and situation. sure, go and have dates with your lover, but do it discreetly to the point nobody would ever gossip over it. when the rumours started, not only it gives disrespect to dowun (yes, i still think she should respect him, i’ll explain more later), but also disrespect to herself. nobody likes a scandalous queen. in asia, reputation is everything. no one likes to be led by someone with questionable reputation. this also could be a liability and bite her back later on when someone tries to challenge her honor and reputation as the queen, for example: someone like jayang. there’s a saying: “人要脸,树要皮","ren yao lian, shu yao pi”, “person must have face, tree must have skin”, meaning “Keeping a good reputation (face) is as essential as bark is to a tree”. you should always maintain your reputation/face at all cost. Maintaining one’s ‘face’ is actually a form of respect for yourself and respect to others in asia. if such small things like keeping face she can disregards, what kind of bigger things in the future she would dare to disregard.
it means what it’s written. and what i meant by the plan is started from the moment he met fl in the dispensary to the moment they would be married, because i believe that meeting is not coincidental but deliberate. this matters to his character because he’s someone who’s deemed emotions as a weakness. the way i see it, he chose fl because he would have a more equal footing in the proposal than if he did the proposal with the other princess. that’s it. at least from what the story so far. dowun even stated he chose her over the other princess because she has more thirst than her. not because of love, just because she’s easier to handle.
for a manipulative person to not take advantage of her romantic feelings for him, that would be foolish. if he knew she was in love with him, then as manipulative as he is, why would he deny her everytime she asked for affections from him? if he knew the key to control honglyon is love, why didn’t he entertain her with that love, albeit superficial? perhaps dowun is smart, but not smart in everything as we made him to be, because if he wanted to be the ultimate manipulator, he would fake his feelings and give her affection she’s desperately needed. then she would never resist his plan and he would have the ultimate control of her.
“but he was so kind to her in the beginning. of course it was him faking his feelings”. he was kind to her out of courtesy and respect as she was the royal princess. like i said, respect is one of asia's core values in society. that’s why when he first introduced his lil bro to her, he told him to be watchful of his words, because his bro was acting disrespectfully at that time. he took advantage of her, not because he wanted to make her fall for him. again, it’s just weird if a manipulative person knew ‘she’s obviously in love with him’ and not use that to be one of his weapons to control her. because he never faked affection, that’s why they grew distant and always in conflict now.
and yes he did everything for both of them. he has his interests, while also looking out for hers. why i can say this? because he doesn’t involve with his bro and father’s scheme related to jayang.
that is not respect. it’s a delegation. well, to be exact she was just letting him to take over, but it doesn’t mean she respects him. in asian culture, since this is a historical asian story, respect is shown through your attitude, choice of words, and gestures, which also would influence your feelings about responsibility and decision makings. fl’s actions ‘till now, to always go against him, has indicated that she has no respect for dowun, her business partner and her only teacher. teacher is one of the most important figures to be respected besides parents and elders in asian community, especially in east asian countries. why? because teacher is the source of knowledge. there’s a chinese proverb says, “一日为师，终身为父” yi ri wei shi, zhong shen wei fu “one day as your teacher, like a father for a lifetime.”, meaning “Even if someone is your teacher for only a day, you should regard him like your father for the rest of your life.”. that just shows how we asians took our teachers seriously. “but dowun did this out of interest!”. duh, do you think all teachers do it just because of passion for teaching? no, even back then, some people did it for a living and nothing’s wrong with that. does that mean just because we paid them money, we shouldn’t respect them? definitely no. teacher are people who taught us knowledge to make our life better. i can’t never deny the fact that because of my teachers taught me beneficial skills, i can be better at doing my job today. even if one day i got estranged from my teachers, i would still respect them. and it's the same with fl. because his teachings, she can gain more favours and good impressions with the king. no matter if she likes him or not, he is her teacher and she should respect him. like him? doesn't have to.
also, if she truly respected him, she would make sure to do her responsibility in their agreement. but in this case, she hasn’t done her part and already go against him with dowun’s bro, when she has already got all the benefits. i never met anyone in real life who would feel overjoyed or okay when their business partner betray their alliance after the other person got all the benefits and the other hasn’t. i haven’t met such person, have you? be responsible of your own choice wether you like it or not. don't back out when things are not in your favour anymore.
just additional info, in western, if you talk with people with no eye contact, it would be seen as rude. in asia, a place with stricter rules for etiquettes, if you can’t even look in the eye of the person you have alliance and engaged with, that would be considered rude. however back then, for females and males of age, to actually make eye contact with others beside your betrothed/husband would be deemed as being seductive, inappropriate and disrespectful. just in case you didn’t know.
wow. i don’t think it’s right to support any form of betrayal in any stories, especially if the other person has always done their part accordingly. but in order to support your favorite characters, you would actually pardon such action. that says a lot about your character. even in the old times, betrayal has never been seen as honourable. tbh, as the reader who can see what’s actually going on in the story as a whole, i think fl should be more wary to dowun’s bro than to dowun. why? because he saved jayang, the only person who has the eligibility to challenge fl’s position. there’s only 3 outcomes i can think of related to jayang:
1. as a replacement to fl, we know about this already, since dowun’s bro and father saved her for that,
2. as a pawn to set up dowun so that he would be deemed as a traitor and have him and jayang killed, since dowun’s bro doesn’t like both of them. if it's like this, does it mean dowun's bro would be the one to get marry to fl or what? if it's not, then who would be the one to carry their clan's interest? or,
3. again, as a bait to set up dowun. the difference is fl would also get killed by dowun’s bro because he’s actually still salty by what happened back then, since fl did nothing, either, though he already said he’s okay with it. but he could be lying, who knows. then he and jayang would get married. and he would use jayang the same way as dowun to honglyon, because he hates her, but needs her royal blood.
why i can think like this? because he hid jayang, but still approached fl to go against dowun. then what his true motive?
if you think about it, dowun’s bro is actually more dangerous than dowun. because he’s cunning and also understand more about human emotions than dowun. plus, he has some sort of emotional scar made by the 3 of them: dowun, fl, jayang. in fl’s defense, she doesn’t know that dowun’s bro hid jayang, that’s why she trusts him. another reason is because she has feelings for baekhan, which dowun deemed as a threat. so yeah, she would betray dowun for her love. and that’s actually what she has always been doing, acting according to her emotions. when she doesn’t like them anymore, she would discard them. when she’s ‘in love’, she would follow them, like when dowun proposed the plan to her. and what dowun’s bro and father are doing right now should be considered as traitorous, since keeping a royal refugee like that is an act of treachery.
i still think that she shouldn’t betray dowun, why? first, because it would only made her character looks worse than what she is right now. second, what’s made her different than dowun if she did that? at least now, we could still say she has a heart even though she might not be that wise in making decisions. say, she betrayed dowun with reasoning such as his actions were immoral. then shouldn’t she go against him from long time ago, and saved dowun’s bro, someone who’s also nice to her, when that thing happened in the past? but she didn’t because it was beneficial for her at that time and she still had feelings for dowun then. the only reason she was so against dowun now is because of her feelings of 'love' has shifted from dowun to baekhan. it’s only immoral for her if it’s related to her beloved baekhan and if it’s not beneficial for her, since he is her lover. what’s the difference with dowun who did things for his own gain, if she also did the same immoral thing? generally, betrayal has never brought anything good in life.
of course he would do that because the bodyguard threatened his existence. ever since the time skip, whenever baekhan’s around, the fl would do things the opposite of what dowun's intended, and that’s why it’s threatening to him. i do understand why he has to go to such length. that was the “survival of the fittest” era, especially in palace. if by becoming cold, cruel and manipulative would make sure his survival, then so be it. it’s the way people lived back then. it’s not right, but that’s how it was. it’s not the same with modern age, though there are still some countries at war, we don’t have to fight our neighbours to mark our land, like what people back then did to maintain their territory. we would still experience "dog eats dog world" moment here and there, but it won't be on the same level or intensity as back then. that's why to be cruel is necessary.
people kept forgetting that this is a historical political drama where it shows a story in one of the cruelest place on earth when the time setting is also harsh and cruel. it’s a foolish thing to think just because he is a mere royal guardian, he would never be involved in any politics in the palace, especially in this context, baekhan has romantic feelings for his queen, which is taboo back then. so who should be blamed for this? the man who tried to maintain his survival in this dog eats dog world, or the man who forgot his duties and has inappropriate feelings for his employer? none. for me, baekhan should know better that his action isn’t appropriate and would incite fury. and dowun should also realise fl wasn’t as clueless as before and targeting baekhan would not make her listen to him.
it’s easy for us to say “we want a leader who’s both smart and have a heart” nowadays, because living is so much easier than the old times. in politics back then, having a heart is not as important as knowing how to win the hearts of the people. there's a different in those two. the emperor would attend meeting about public interests for hours, lived his life according to the schedule that's supervised by the eunuchs and officials, also take consorts and concubines from family of people in power in the royal court. this was not necessarily always have his best interest at heart, but must do it, to appease his people. though at the same time, he would gain reputation as benevolent and caring emperor, plus stability in the court and more power in his palace. the emperors lived such a rigid lifestyle that was controlled by traditions. heck, they would even have less freedom than common people. say he refused to take more concubines out of consideration for his beloved empress, this would raise a chaos in the royal court, which could lead to usurpation. the emperor must do what he needed to do wether it’s right or not in today’s people’s eyes, because that’s how people lived back then in imperial palace. no wonder they would be taught to have a harden heart since young age. turning off your emotions and see things just as it is would actually help someone to stay sane in that kind of situation. that’s why you would read so many stories describing crown princes/emperors to have been numb of their own emotions. and why emperors were also used to be depicted as “smiling tiger”, because they looked gentle from the outside, but sly inside. even to this day, i can’t say for sure that all leaders have hearts and genuinely care about their people, cause we can’t read their minds, but definitely they know how to win people. it’s just that everything’s related to politics is dirty. people with weak mind and weak heart should never get involved in politics.
dowun doesn’t have a heart, yet. i don’t believe any human was born evil, like some antichrist baby in the omen, but can be evil because of environment. living in old times, you were shaped to be able to make cruel decisions for yourself and others. like dowun said, “the imperial court has always been this kind of place. if you do not have power, it is the most suffocating prison there is.”. so it’s understandable why people in the palace would go such lengths just for power. i’m not agreeing with this, but that was how people lived to survive in the ancient time, especially if they were involved with the imperial palace. but even if he’s cold, manipulative and sly, it doesn’t close the possibility of him growing his heart. same as in fl’s case, she was so weak-minded and insecure at the beginning of the story because of her environment, but she can still grow up to be stronger than before, though, she’s using too much of her emotions atm. however, it also doesn’t close the possibility that fl would think using her brain more than just her heart.
what a way to see things. i argued back because i want to do it and i can do it. if you can tell people what they can/can’t do, why i couldn’t comment back on your arguments? this is a free forum right, where you can express your thoughts freely.
yes, i never excused dowun or supported his way. i only stated why i can understand why he did things he did. not even once i said that what he did was admirable or we should all follow him here. never. there’s a different with being able to understand and agreeing. please do remember, this is a historical asian political drama with a tragedy tag on it. if you keep using your 21st century western centric glasses, it isn't weird if you would never be able to understand why he did the things he did. so of course, things won’t be pretty. of course that would be a lot of schemes and manipulation. of course there would be betrayal, that i would never support in any way or in any other stories, but what can i do if the writer made it that way. also, i never told you to understand this things. i merely stated in details how i can see things the way i see it. not telling you to do things you don’t want. wether after all of these you still choose not to understand, it’s on you, not me. actually, you were the one who kept telling people to stop thinking the way they want to think, just because you disagree. to the point that you would even said
it’s annoying to have someone imposing what you can/can’t do just because they don’t share the same values. it’s even more annoying to have someone you don’t know judged you because of it. instead of thinking “oh, these people have different upbringing, education, history, cultures and experience than me, that’s why they can see things differently”, you’d rather judge us for your own satisfaction.
and in the end, even after all of these long post, you would still regards this as excuses. smh.
overall, everything that happens to all these characters were because of their own doing. one is a schemer, one is a hypocrite and one is forgetting his duties. since this is more of a dark story, i think as of now, dowun would die because of betrayal. betrayed by who, i’m still not sure. perhaps fl, but i hope not, for the sake of herself. because like you said, dowun got what’s coming for him because his own doings. then it could also be applied to fl. if she betrayed dowun because of emotions, then she must be ready to be betrayed in return for the same exact reason. imo, i think her downfall would be because of herself, not because of dowun or baekhan. sure, they’ll be part of it, but her decision would be the ultimate reason why she lost everything.
can’t you read english? i said i agreed with what the others that have interacted with you about this. but if you want to know my persepective about this, sure i’ll give it to you.
if dowun didn’t do what he did, to solely blame the mistake to his brother, then the one who would bear the punishment would be the whole clan. one person made a mistake, the whole community would bear the sin. that's the asian way back then. you can actually see this when dowun was explaining to fl of that event. “he took away the gift he gave you. do you not understand? as dogyeol’s punishment was shifted upon you, so was his crime. his majesty will never go back to you”, which means since fl is now affiliated with dowun's clan, she would also bear the consequences though she wasn't the culprit. also, all his efforts to teach her and engagement with her for the survival of the clan would amount to nothing.
then people would say, “but still it’s cruel of him to do his bro like that. how could you do that to your own family just for the sake of the clan?”. first of all, despite intentionally done or not, dowun’s bro made a mistake, so he should be responsible for it. second, in asian cultures especially in ancient times, there's this value where collective interest surpasses personal interest, meaning their life aren't just for them anymore. it's not my survival, but our survival. dowun needs to make sure this petty mistake would not influence the livelihood of their clan’s interest. he needed to put the clan’s interest first before his bro’s interest. it was necessary of him to do that. it is one of asia's core values that was taught to everyone, even to this day, though it's not as hardcore as it's used to be. you can still see today the example of south korean males of age, where they have to be enlisted no matter if individually, they want it or not. the interest of the country holds more power than personal interest.
it’s different with the western culture where you are encouraged to show your individuality. the more unique, the better. if you do this in ancient asia time, you would be deemed as rebellious. so, collectivism over individualism. but let’s say dowun defended his bro and reasoned his mistake as just a slip of the tongue. however, the king felt dissatisfied with it and exiled their clan, which means the clan’s interest is actually going further away from reaching their goal. what do you think would happen to dowun and his bro when they got back to the clan? do you think they would welcome them with warm feelings, say things like: “ah… it’s okay, champ. there’s always next year to reach our goal” and praise them for what they did?
also, it was because of politics. dowun needed to make sure that what he did would appease the king, so he could stay in the palace and do his works. that’s the politics back then. as the person affiliated with the offender, you need to satisfy the emperor first before anything else, wether you like it or not. because if he’s happy, you could live. if he’s not happy, he could just accuse you of things you didn’t do and chop your head. that’s the gist of it. and nobody would ever dare to disagree with that decision. that’s why, weak-minded and easily deceived people are not suitable to live in the palace. if the author really wanted to write the story as historically accurate as the old times, then it is understandable why he/she wrote dowun did that. dowun’s bro can’t understand this, then shame on him for being immature. looks like dowun’s bro would rather have his whole clan bear the sin of his mistake, than taking responsibility of his own mistake. yes yes, it’s sad he had to be punished because of being deceived, but mistake is a mistake nonetheless.
then another people would say, “but why should he left him alone in the rain like that? he could have just easily wait until the rain is over!” again, it’s palace politics. he needed to make an illusion that his brother has already repented his mistake and determined to be forgiven. that’s why you would see in other historical drama, someone would kneel for days in front of the head of the house’s room after making mistakes. also to gain sympathy of the palace people. to look more miserable is better. this is basic survival trick to live in the palace. you don’t to have to be ‘so in touch with emotions’ to know about this. everything is politics in the palace. then another would say again, “but he’s just a kid, that’s too harsh!!”. so if he’s a kid means he could never make mistakes? so if he’s a kid he should be forgiven for all his faults and never learn from it? maybe in western countries this could happen, but definitely not in asia. once you live in the palace, there are certain things you should never do. that was the law and nobody is exempted from that, even if you are old/young, rich/poor, royalty/commoner. make a mistake in the palace, then you have to be prepare to bear the consequences. even for commoners, if a child made mistakes, they would be punished by beating by the authority figure. that's just how asian raised their kids.
this is such a western thing to say. i’m a half-chinese and half-southeastasian, living in asia my whole life, so i’m familiar with asian culture and values. my grandma was pure chinese born in the year ’25. she told me that when she or her siblings made mistakes, they would be punished hard and that’s it. no parents, no siblings or elders would come to you and give you hugs and kisses as a console. nobody. children were expected to be mature on their own. if people in the 1920’s can do this, how do you think people that live in much older times raised their children? heck, even when i grew up in the 90’s, i would still get that treatment. ‘console your kids after punishing them’ is a fairly new concept that is introduced to asian households. mind you that i’m talking about asians living in asia, not asian-american or another asian families that has assimilated with western culture.
no, the fl asked for help first, to teach her how to read. she asked first, because she wanted to be something more than what she was at that moment, i quote about fl’s thoughts of dowun :”this child is around my age, but he’s already impressive. what can i do to be more like him.” then proceed the event when she asked his help and dowun asked back what she can give in returns. after that, the said proposal. yes, he took advantage of her situation, but didn’t force her. nobody forced her. even when dowun explained what kind of contract they would have, that it wouldn’t be based on feelings, she still agreed to it. nobody forced her. she took the proposal out of her own will, because she wanted to be “more like dowun” and also because she has already fancied dowun. she had desires but she couln’t do it because of her poor situation. i quote: “even if i wanted to, i probably wouldn’t have the opportunity to learn. my mother is gone, and nobody respects me. i was ignored even when i was in mortal danger, what can i do?”. she knew the proposal would allow her to be able to do those things. so, she did have done things for her own desires. and here you said she has never done anything once for herself. who’s in denial now? when dowun proposed, “i want to recover our clan’s glorious honor. i’ll also return it to you. what is yours as a royal. authority and power.”, she still didn’t refuse him. if she only wanted to be able to read, than she could just say “sorry, i only wanted to be able to read. no need for power or authority.” but she didn’t, because she wanted those things, too. how can i say this? because when dowun said to her, “do you wish to go back to that nearly broken down hut, to be ignored by even the lowest of the palace maids?”, she was silent because she didn’t want to go back to when she was still very miserable. if she really did affiliate with dowun only for being taught how to read, then at that time dowun said that, she would go right away to save the lil bro. she wouldn't care about losing favours with the king, as her goal, to be able to read, is already achieved. but that wasn't what happened, right?
again! another glorifying. first you said fl “sacrificed” everything for dowun, like she’s a saint who did all of those willingly without ever having any desires for herself or getting benefits in the process. now you said baekhan is innocent, like baekhan doesn’t have any faults at all. sure, he’s a nice guy, much nicer that dowun obviously, but innocent of any wrongdoings? no. what kind of innocent man would do things that were considered as inappropriate back then with someone that he’s supposed to guard in the palace? i could understand why honglyon did that, but what about him? what’s his excuse? love? omygod yes! how could i forget about this! it’s always been praiseworthy to choose love over your duty. that’s so professional of him. we all should strive to be as professional as baekhan in our job, so that we would be looked as innocent in public’s eyes.
i guess my explanation wasn’t clear enough. yes, dowun agreed to that, but as the queen, doesn't mean she could just act freely without any care. i don’t care who she has affairs with, but HOW she does her affairs. i want to show how this ambiguous relationship of hers would reflect poorly on her characters because she did it with no regards to her position and situation. sure, go and have dates with your lover, but do it discreetly to the point nobody would ever gossip over it. when the rumours started, not only it gives disrespect to dowun (yes, i still think she should respect him, i’ll explain more later), but also disrespect to herself. nobody likes a scandalous queen. in asia, reputation is everything. no one likes to be led by someone with questionable reputation. this also could be a liability and bite her back later on when someone tries to challenge her honor and reputation as the queen, for example: someone like jayang. there’s a saying: “人要脸,树要皮","ren yao lian, shu yao pi”, “person must have face, tree must have skin”, meaning “Keeping a good reputation (face) is as essential as bark is to a tree”. you should always maintain your reputation/face at all cost. Maintaining one’s ‘face’ is actually a form of respect for yourself and respect to others in asia. if such small things like keeping face she can disregards, what kind of bigger things in the future she would dare to disregard.
it means what it’s written. and what i meant by the plan is started from the moment he met fl in the dispensary to the moment they would be married, because i believe that meeting is not coincidental but deliberate. this matters to his character because he’s someone who’s deemed emotions as a weakness. the way i see it, he chose fl because he would have a more equal footing in the proposal than if he did the proposal with the other princess. that’s it. at least from what the story so far. dowun even stated he chose her over the other princess because she has more thirst than her. not because of love, just because she’s easier to handle.
for a manipulative person to not take advantage of her romantic feelings for him, that would be foolish. if he knew she was in love with him, then as manipulative as he is, why would he deny her everytime she asked for affections from him? if he knew the key to control honglyon is love, why didn’t he entertain her with that love, albeit superficial? perhaps dowun is smart, but not smart in everything as we made him to be, because if he wanted to be the ultimate manipulator, he would fake his feelings and give her affection she’s desperately needed. then she would never resist his plan and he would have the ultimate control of her.
“but he was so kind to her in the beginning. of course it was him faking his feelings”. he was kind to her out of courtesy and respect as she was the royal princess. like i said, respect is one of asia's core values in society. that’s why when he first introduced his lil bro to her, he told him to be watchful of his words, because his bro was acting disrespectfully at that time. he took advantage of her, not because he wanted to make her fall for him. again, it’s just weird if a manipulative person knew ‘she’s obviously in love with him’ and not use that to be one of his weapons to control her. because he never faked affection, that’s why they grew distant and always in conflict now.
and yes he did everything for both of them. he has his interests, while also looking out for hers. why i can say this? because he doesn’t involve with his bro and father’s scheme related to jayang.
that is not respect. it’s a delegation. well, to be exact she was just letting him to take over, but it doesn’t mean she respects him. in asian culture, since this is a historical asian story, respect is shown through your attitude, choice of words, and gestures, which also would influence your feelings about responsibility and decision makings. fl’s actions ‘till now, to always go against him, has indicated that she has no respect for dowun, her business partner and her only teacher. teacher is one of the most important figures to be respected besides parents and elders in asian community, especially in east asian countries. why? because teacher is the source of knowledge. there’s a chinese proverb says, “一日为师，终身为父” yi ri wei shi, zhong shen wei fu “one day as your teacher, like a father for a lifetime.”, meaning “Even if someone is your teacher for only a day, you should regard him like your father for the rest of your life.”. that just shows how we asians took our teachers seriously. “but dowun did this out of interest!”. duh, do you think all teachers do it just because of passion for teaching? no, even back then, some people did it for a living and nothing’s wrong with that. does that mean just because we paid them money, we shouldn’t respect them? definitely no. teacher are people who taught us knowledge to make our life better. i can’t never deny the fact that because of my teachers taught me beneficial skills, i can be better at doing my job today. even if one day i got estranged from my teachers, i would still respect them. and it's the same with fl. because his teachings, she can gain more favours and good impressions with the king. no matter if she likes him or not, he is her teacher and she should respect him. like him? doesn't have to.
also, if she truly respected him, she would make sure to do her responsibility in their agreement. but in this case, she hasn’t done her part and already go against him with dowun’s bro, when she has already got all the benefits. i never met anyone in real life who would feel overjoyed or okay when their business partner betray their alliance after the other person got all the benefits and the other hasn’t. i haven’t met such person, have you? be responsible of your own choice wether you like it or not. don't back out when things are not in your favour anymore.
just additional info, in western, if you talk with people with no eye contact, it would be seen as rude. in asia, a place with stricter rules for etiquettes, if you can’t even look in the eye of the person you have alliance and engaged with, that would be considered rude. however back then, for females and males of age, to actually make eye contact with others beside your betrothed/husband would be deemed as being seductive, inappropriate and disrespectful. just in case you didn’t know.
wow. i don’t think it’s right to support any form of betrayal in any stories, especially if the other person has always done their part accordingly. but in order to support your favorite characters, you would actually pardon such action. that says a lot about your character. even in the old times, betrayal has never been seen as honourable. tbh, as the reader who can see what’s actually going on in the story as a whole, i think fl should be more wary to dowun’s bro than to dowun. why? because he saved jayang, the only person who has the eligibility to challenge fl’s position. there’s only 3 outcomes i can think of related to jayang:
1. as a replacement to fl, we know about this already, since dowun’s bro and father saved her for that,
2. as a pawn to set up dowun so that he would be deemed as a traitor and have him and jayang killed, since dowun’s bro doesn’t like both of them. if it's like this, does it mean dowun's bro would be the one to get marry to fl or what? if it's not, then who would be the one to carry their clan's interest? or,
3. again, as a bait to set up dowun. the difference is fl would also get killed by dowun’s bro because he’s actually still salty by what happened back then, since fl did nothing, either, though he already said he’s okay with it. but he could be lying, who knows. then he and jayang would get married. and he would use jayang the same way as dowun to honglyon, because he hates her, but needs her royal blood.
why i can think like this? because he hid jayang, but still approached fl to go against dowun. then what his true motive?
if you think about it, dowun’s bro is actually more dangerous than dowun. because he’s cunning and also understand more about human emotions than dowun. plus, he has some sort of emotional scar made by the 3 of them: dowun, fl, jayang. in fl’s defense, she doesn’t know that dowun’s bro hid jayang, that’s why she trusts him. another reason is because she has feelings for baekhan, which dowun deemed as a threat. so yeah, she would betray dowun for her love. and that’s actually what she has always been doing, acting according to her emotions. when she doesn’t like them anymore, she would discard them. when she’s ‘in love’, she would follow them, like when dowun proposed the plan to her. and what dowun’s bro and father are doing right now should be considered as traitorous, since keeping a royal refugee like that is an act of treachery.
i still think that she shouldn’t betray dowun, why? first, because it would only made her character looks worse than what she is right now. second, what’s made her different than dowun if she did that? at least now, we could still say she has a heart even though she might not be that wise in making decisions. say, she betrayed dowun with reasoning such as his actions were immoral. then shouldn’t she go against him from long time ago, and saved dowun’s bro, someone who’s also nice to her, when that thing happened in the past? but she didn’t because it was beneficial for her at that time and she still had feelings for dowun then. the only reason she was so against dowun now is because of her feelings of 'love' has shifted from dowun to baekhan. it’s only immoral for her if it’s related to her beloved baekhan and if it’s not beneficial for her, since he is her lover. what’s the difference with dowun who did things for his own gain, if she also did the same immoral thing? generally, betrayal has never brought anything good in life.
of course he would do that because the bodyguard threatened his existence. ever since the time skip, whenever baekhan’s around, the fl would do things the opposite of what dowun's intended, and that’s why it’s threatening to him. i do understand why he has to go to such length. that was the “survival of the fittest” era, especially in palace. if by becoming cold, cruel and manipulative would make sure his survival, then so be it. it’s the way people lived back then. it’s not right, but that’s how it was. it’s not the same with modern age, though there are still some countries at war, we don’t have to fight our neighbours to mark our land, like what people back then did to maintain their territory. we would still experience "dog eats dog world" moment here and there, but it won't be on the same level or intensity as back then. that's why to be cruel is necessary.
people kept forgetting that this is a historical political drama where it shows a story in one of the cruelest place on earth when the time setting is also harsh and cruel. it’s a foolish thing to think just because he is a mere royal guardian, he would never be involved in any politics in the palace, especially in this context, baekhan has romantic feelings for his queen, which is taboo back then. so who should be blamed for this? the man who tried to maintain his survival in this dog eats dog world, or the man who forgot his duties and has inappropriate feelings for his employer? none. for me, baekhan should know better that his action isn’t appropriate and would incite fury. and dowun should also realise fl wasn’t as clueless as before and targeting baekhan would not make her listen to him.
it’s easy for us to say “we want a leader who’s both smart and have a heart” nowadays, because living is so much easier than the old times. in politics back then, having a heart is not as important as knowing how to win the hearts of the people. there's a different in those two. the emperor would attend meeting about public interests for hours, lived his life according to the schedule that's supervised by the eunuchs and officials, also take consorts and concubines from family of people in power in the royal court. this was not necessarily always have his best interest at heart, but must do it, to appease his people. though at the same time, he would gain reputation as benevolent and caring emperor, plus stability in the court and more power in his palace. the emperors lived such a rigid lifestyle that was controlled by traditions. heck, they would even have less freedom than common people. say he refused to take more concubines out of consideration for his beloved empress, this would raise a chaos in the royal court, which could lead to usurpation. the emperor must do what he needed to do wether it’s right or not in today’s people’s eyes, because that’s how people lived back then in imperial palace. no wonder they would be taught to have a harden heart since young age. turning off your emotions and see things just as it is would actually help someone to stay sane in that kind of situation. that’s why you would read so many stories describing crown princes/emperors to have been numb of their own emotions. and why emperors were also used to be depicted as “smiling tiger”, because they looked gentle from the outside, but sly inside. even to this day, i can’t say for sure that all leaders have hearts and genuinely care about their people, cause we can’t read their minds, but definitely they know how to win people. it’s just that everything’s related to politics is dirty. people with weak mind and weak heart should never get involved in politics.
dowun doesn’t have a heart, yet. i don’t believe any human was born evil, like some antichrist baby in the omen, but can be evil because of environment. living in old times, you were shaped to be able to make cruel decisions for yourself and others. like dowun said, “the imperial court has always been this kind of place. if you do not have power, it is the most suffocating prison there is.”. so it’s understandable why people in the palace would go such lengths just for power. i’m not agreeing with this, but that was how people lived to survive in the ancient time, especially if they were involved with the imperial palace. but even if he’s cold, manipulative and sly, it doesn’t close the possibility of him growing his heart. same as in fl’s case, she was so weak-minded and insecure at the beginning of the story because of her environment, but she can still grow up to be stronger than before, though, she’s using too much of her emotions atm. however, it also doesn’t close the possibility that fl would think using her brain more than just her heart.
what a way to see things. i argued back because i want to do it and i can do it. if you can tell people what they can/can’t do, why i couldn’t comment back on your arguments? this is a free forum right, where you can express your thoughts freely.
yes, i never excused dowun or supported his way. i only stated why i can understand why he did things he did. not even once i said that what he did was admirable or we should all follow him here. never. there’s a different with being able to understand and agreeing. please do remember, this is a historical asian political drama with a tragedy tag on it. if you keep using your 21st century western centric glasses, it isn't weird if you would never be able to understand why he did the things he did. so of course, things won’t be pretty. of course that would be a lot of schemes and manipulation. of course there would be betrayal, that i would never support in any way or in any other stories, but what can i do if the writer made it that way. also, i never told you to understand this things. i merely stated in details how i can see things the way i see it. not telling you to do things you don’t want. wether after all of these you still choose not to understand, it’s on you, not me. actually, you were the one who kept telling people to stop thinking the way they want to think, just because you disagree. to the point that you would even said
, as in something’s wrong with us?? you said i'm cold af because my arguments resonance with dowun's way?? not true. maybe because i read more about political science than you would ever read in your whole life, that's why i can understand about the politics in this story. you judged us first, because you can’t understand our pov. never in any of my previous posts here i judged your character based on your heavily glorifying fl-baekhan opinions, not until you judged me first. why can’t i judge you back if you did it first?
it’s annoying to have someone imposing what you can/can’t do just because they don’t share the same values. it’s even more annoying to have someone you don’t know judged you because of it. instead of thinking “oh, these people have different upbringing, education, history, cultures and experience than me, that’s why they can see things differently”, you’d rather judge us for your own satisfaction.
and in the end, even after all of these long post, you would still regards this as excuses. smh.
overall, everything that happens to all these characters were because of their own doing. one is a schemer, one is a hypocrite and one is forgetting his duties. since this is more of a dark story, i think as of now, dowun would die because of betrayal. betrayed by who, i’m still not sure. perhaps fl, but i hope not, for the sake of herself. because like you said, dowun got what’s coming for him because his own doings. then it could also be applied to fl. if she betrayed dowun because of emotions, then she must be ready to be betrayed in return for the same exact reason. imo, i think her downfall would be because of herself, not because of dowun or baekhan. sure, they’ll be part of it, but her decision would be the ultimate reason why she lost everything.
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@spchntrt
Everything you said was damn cold. You are lacking a heart too. Anyways, everything you said was based on assumptions. You are just guessing why Dowun did this, why Dowun did that. How do you know this even though we have not seen Dowun's point of view yet? It doesn't change the fact that the man is lacking a heart. In fact, everything you said is supporting the fact that he will sacrifice anything for his goal of redeeming his clan's honor. Again, as I said, you are reading this how you want to read instead of how it is. The people who were interacting with me a long time ago were doing the same things, and I quote, they were starting out with comments like "I would like to believe Dowun did not abandon his brother". You are assuming things by twisting it to how you want to see it and are creating opinions from his assumption. If you are disagreeing what I am saying, then here is an example:
Everything you said was damn cold. You are lacking a heart too. Anyways, everything you said was based on assumptions. You are just guessing why Dowun did this, why Dowun did that. How do you know this even though we have not seen Dowun's point of view yet? It doesn't change the fact that the man is lacking a heart. In fact, everything you said is supporting the fact that he will sacrifice anything for his goal of redeeming his clan's honor. Again, as I said, you are reading this how you want to read instead of how it is. The people who were interacting with me a long time ago were doing the same things, and I quote, they were starting out with comments like "I would like to believe Dowun did not abandon his brother". You are assuming things by twisting it to how you want to see it and are creating opinions from his assumption. If you are disagreeing what I am saying, then here is an example:
Did Dowun say this? Did it say this anywhere in the book? No, because you are just assuming what he is thinking and believing what you would like to believe. Don't say that you are just using your brain because it's obvious that you are. You have to use your brain in order to make assumptions, but it's still an assumption. We have to wait for his point of view first. I would also like to believe that Dowun does care about the people who love him and etc. However, as of right now, all I see him doing is just throwing away people, manipulating people, and trying to kill them off for the sake of his goal like lol. This man does not seem to have a heart rn. He is cold as hell, like a whole robot. A robot is smart af and always makes the smart choice but lacks a heart. Anyway, I really do not feel like typing a lot lol. So yeah, if you alright with this and just don't care, then, as I said, nothing I can do about it lol. You do you.
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I was just here to say, read this. It’s worth your time. Art is good and suits the theme. As my literature teacher used to say “a round character is good for the story.”
This is one of my favourite genre so perhaps I’m too biased. But, I’d like to say I haven’t read many similar to this.
This is one of my favourite genre so perhaps I’m too biased. But, I’d like to say I haven’t read many similar to this.
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- Aug 2, 2020
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This is not aimed at anyone in particular, just a general observation.
Is it that hard to tolerate that people have different opinions and dowun character is going to be appreciated? Appreciating a complex interesting character, and what they bring to the story doesn't equal to supporting their questionable deeds.
Love or hate him, dowun is what makes the story compelling. He's multifaceted, morally complex and can't just shallowly be labeled as evil, that's on you and your projections. Some of the things he has done are far from excusable, but I am inclined to give him all the benefits of the doubt. You can't just pick and choose on who's evil when they're all were willing to make sacrifices to reach their goals, none of them are innocent.
Is it that hard to tolerate that people have different opinions and dowun character is going to be appreciated? Appreciating a complex interesting character, and what they bring to the story doesn't equal to supporting their questionable deeds.
Love or hate him, dowun is what makes the story compelling. He's multifaceted, morally complex and can't just shallowly be labeled as evil, that's on you and your projections. Some of the things he has done are far from excusable, but I am inclined to give him all the benefits of the doubt. You can't just pick and choose on who's evil when they're all were willing to make sacrifices to reach their goals, none of them are innocent.
Might gonna get a paragraph disagreeing with me on this but I don’t ship the MC with the guard. I love them, but I really don’t think they’d ever find a way to be happy together without the MC abandoning everything she worked for 
the angst is already so painful
the angst is already so painfulThe comments section in this comic is so toxic and stressful! I obviously tried ignoring it, but then I realized the comments had completely taken away the enjoyment of reading this comic (mostly because I'd get angry after remembering crap I read in a comment), so I had to put it on hold. Coming back after a few months, I see I made the right decision, it still looks like a fcking battlefield!
I don't usually go after spoilers, but I think I'll wait until this manhwa is finished. I won't put myself through all the drama in the story AND the comments section without knowing what's gonna happen in the end lol
I don't usually go after spoilers, but I think I'll wait until this manhwa is finished. I won't put myself through all the drama in the story AND the comments section without knowing what's gonna happen in the end lol
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- Oct 3, 2019
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Thank you for translating! ❤️😊
Based on the cover, I guess the ML would be Beak Han. But I also like Dowun. He’s said to be intelligent and soon mature since young but I guess it’s not really like that, he was not mentally mature at such young age judging by what he chose to do with the princess. He is not the one I expect to be ML in this manhwa, but I also don’t want the worst ending for him.
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Uuuh just catch up to last chapter. Like the story its good.
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Not a spoiler. This has been long overdue. Sorry, just need to get it out of my chest. Here we go. (disclaimer: mini essay 2.0.) @HotGirlShi
No, it’s analysis. Assumption can only happen if I have no proof whatsoever to back up my arguments, or just arguing solely based on feelings like you always did. Before you’re saying “excuses”, now “assumption”. You’re just changing the word with the same intention to degrade opinions that aren’t suitable to your taste. And what the hell do you want? You’re the one who challenged my perspective on lil bro’s situation, even when I already told you that I already agree with someone else’s arguments you had Interacted before, thus I don’t feel the need to repeat it again. You said “Are you just purposely ignoring it bc it doesn't help you with your argument?” Yet, after I gave you my proper answer, you closed one eye, dismissed it because you can’t handle the truth, and regarded it as “twisting the story”. You even said “we have to wait his pov first” now in your latest respond, after deliberately asked the question. Why you asked then if you think we should wait?? So, should I just not answer your question at all then? Huh, If I didn’t answer it, the next thing I know, you’re just gonna repeat the same provocative remark, just with different wording. Or is that what you intended all along? Provocation? Huh, I see. At the very least, even if you only wanted to provoke me and see me as unworthy coz I’m a cold heartless bitch, give recognition to the fact that Asian values, culture and history are the basis of the background setting of the story, since this is an Asian historical political based story. Don’t regard it as if I made all this up without any logical reasoning.
And “twisting the story however I want to see it”? Oh, really? So, I’m the one who’s twisting the story by analyzing it based on real life facts and what is going on in the story, while you’re the one here who kept insisting the fl is a sacrificial angel that has never done anything for her own gain. while in fact in the story itself, she has confessed to baekhan that she is “able to become like him because, somewhere deep inside me, I was the same as him. Both dowun and I were greedy and somewhat twisted.” by herself. I would like to ask to anyone who read this: How can some confess willingly to other people that she is greedy if she hasn’t realized and admitted it to herself that she is greedy in the first place beforehand? How can someone be greedy if she hasn’t realized by herself that she has personal desires and actively did things to promote that said greediness? Again, for the 2nd times I’m asking you, who’s the one in denial? Who’s the one twisting the characteristics of their favorite however you want to see it, when the character herself realized she is not as good as you made her out to be? Use your common sense, it’s not that hard.
Oh, another thing about your beloved FL. I really ‘love’ how she felt guilty to lil bro, that she “still regret what happened then”, but only apologized to lil bro when she only needed his help. If she’s truly regretful, then when they had tea together earlier, why she didn’t say sorry at that time? Why she only said sorry when lil bro reminded her of that event and when she knew his testimony would help her to release baekhan from punishment? Wow, she’s truly the best person ever. Very admirable. From now on, I should only apologize to people I hurt when I need them because apparently a 'good' person does that.
And you are right, both of us don’t know the backstory, yet. Hell, I don’t even know if there’s gonna be a backstory at all. In other words, it makes us equally clueless about his backstory. However, different from you, I’m not so clueless with the values and culture in the story that could help me with figuring out his actions. With that said, how can you be so sure that all these values, norms and culture I’ve mentioned don’t influence the story at all, to the point that you believe this is all just assumptions? as if these are not real Asian values and culture and I only made up stuffs? As if there’s no such thing as collectivism culture in Asia? As if there’s no such things as underhanded political tricks? And by god, there’s definitely no such thing as harsh Asian upbringing?! I must be a really powerful person to be able to make up history on a whim just so it could help my analysis.
You said we’ve never been shown his pov as your argument and I agree. Especially about what he truly feels about his bro, his family, and his situation. Mind you, there’s a difference between what someone could think about something and what someone could feel about something. So again, how can you be so sure that he’s truly abandoning his bro, since there’s no pov. How can you be so sure he was not trying to save his bro from harsher punishment, considering the possibilities if they failed, lil bro would get harsher punishment from their own clan? Even worse, he could be shunned by his own clan. Why can’t someone think he’s not truly abandoning his brother, since there has been no pov of him about that situation at all? Oh, because he wants to make sure his long-term goal is achieved? Ok, sure, agree. Then, why can’t it be because of both reasons, to achieve his goal and save his bro at the same time? Why can he only be operated by one motivation? Ever heard of the saying of killing two birds with one stone?
You see, humans are complex creature. There’re various combining reasons why someone did what they did. It’s not just as simple as black and white. We have always been living in the grey area. Even when someone’s buying certain shoes, there’re lots of factors could be found behind it. Ex: why they bought it? Because it’s the trend. Why they had to buy shoes that are in trend? Because their friends did it, too. Then, why does it matter if the friends did it, too? Because they want to feel validated. Why they have to feel validated? Because maybe they’re not confident about themselves, and so on. Well, this is just an example, since buying something could either simpler or more complex than this, depending on the person and situation. But, I just want to show that behind every choice, there’s not just consequences to the said choice, but there’re factors that could influence the process of making that decision, including personality, societal norms, culture, environment, values, education, childhood experience, parenting style and other things that I could not think of atm. Since his backstory is not up yet, that’s why we are not sure what to think of his true reasonings. But, doesn’t mean we are not allowed to figure it out on our own, using what is shown in the story and what is known in real life. And why can’t we use what exists in real life as the basis, since every fiction contains enough reality to help us to relate to the story?
You said we have to wait first, but why? Why wait when we can think now? And it’s not like I force you or even try to make you or anyone else to agree with my perspective. I also never said my analysis is definitely right. You just asked for it, (well, more like you provoked me) and I simply answered it. Unlike someone else, who #cough# keep telling other people how they should/shouldn’t think #cough#, I only stated in details how I could think this way. It’s actually you, the one who try to convert others to be like you by telling them how they should think and shaming them if they don’t follow you.
Look, just because I try to figure out his motives and choices by analyzing and connecting real life Asian values, culture and historical facts with what’s happening in the story so far, doesn't mean that it’s gonna be 100% right. For all I know, it could be completely wrong, it could be right on point, or in between. However, since there’s a possibility it could be true, I don’t see why not I couldn’t hold this view. And I never deny he’s a guy who’s willing to do anything for his goals, nor try to make him to be seen as a good person. Again, there’s a difference with agreeing and being able to understand what kind of environment and situation the story is taking place at. What I wrote wasn’t agreeing but only explaining how Asian values, norms and culture at ancient imperialism era could heavily influence the background of the story, meaning the values, norms, and culture are gonna be a reflection of what ancient imperialism in Asia looked like. If you still couldn’t differentiate this, then what can I say.. maybe I’m talking to a brick wall all this time.
How can I be sure that this is Asian influenced story? Because this is a fucking Asia historical political story. Unless, this turns out to be a 15th century medieval Europe political story, then you have every right to call me ‘in denial’, even if I only mention the word “Asia” in discussion.
Wow. That’s a really unbelievably dumb question. Hahaha, it seems every explanation of using sympathy to survive in palace politics and other explanations didn’t go through that thick skull of yours. You’re missing the whole point of the argument. #Le sigh.., fine, I should’ve worded it better for people like you. He needs to make an illusion, what kind of illusion depends on the situation, to gain sympathy. In short, making illusion to gain sympathy. Most of the time can be done by making someone looks pitiful because it’s the easiest and fastest way to gain sympathy. I don’t know where you’re living in or what kind of culture you grew up with or what kind of genre you like to read, however anyone who is familiar with any Asian historical political story, written or on screen, would definitely understand what I mean by making illusion to gain sympathy. What’s else screaming pitiful than kneeling soaked in the rain, begging for forgiveness after making a mistake? It’s the oldest trick in the book and it’s not that hard to understand. The main point of this particular trick is to make illusion to other people that you are pitiful enough, no matter if it’s true or not, so people would sympathize with you. It’s called emotional manipulation. And palace is full of people, therefore is full of emotions, and that’s why palace politics is full of this kind of manipulation. You said it yourself that dowun is manipulative, then why can’t you see this manipulative trick from him? Even to this day, not just in asia, people would still use this trick to their own advantages. For example: recent case of Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Back then, AH was supported by a lot of people when the case appeared in the court because she gained more sympathy from people, since she used her emotions more and showed her bruises to illustrate herself as the victim. But now, after JD told his side of story, people are now screaming justice for him. Why he didn’t gain sympathy before, even when he’s actually not the abuser? Because he never showed his tears nor showed his scars to the public. Still not convinced? Then what about false rape report cases. There are cases where women came crying to the police and told sob story about her imaginary rape and the said rapist would get jailed without a thorough investigation. I’m not saying all rape cases are like this, but there are some cases indeed. And just because the amount is not as much as the real rape cases, doesn’t make it ok for women to use their tears to convict innocent people. I use western cases more, because it has easier access if some people are interested on the topic. Oh, still not convinced? Then you could read some basic historical manhua, like Slaughter Queen Reborn or First Miss Reborn. There’s a lot of example of “pity party” tricks to win conflicts in the household. Or you could just straight away read politics in harem through concubines’ records on internet. But, still not convinced after reading it? Well.. whatever then.
You don’t think it’s a valid argument because dowun never said it? Ok, then let’s use your logic, ‘it’s only true if it’s written in the story’. However, there’s a problem with this logic, you just haven’t realized it yet that you have contradicted yourself. You said it has to be written to be accepted. Then, why didn’t you believe when I stated FL has her own personal desires and had done things willingly to achieve her own interests, because in the story the FL has confessed she is “greedy and somewhat twisted”. However, you keep insisting she is somehow never done anything for herself, not even once. Why can’t you accept the fact she is not as good as you made her out to be since it’s already been written in the story. The fact this is written by the author themselves has even stronger legitimacy than any of my arguments. But why won’t you recognize it then? So, for dowun, everything should be told in details, but when it’s fl’s turn, even if it has been blatantly stated in the story, it’s ok to see the other way and pretended it never happened? Double standards.
I see you have been biased from the beginning and never even bother trying to understand, though you said “I would like to believe that dowun does care about people who love him”. Oh yeah? Then why don’t you give him the benefit of the doubt? If you truly would like to believe in dowun, then why are you shaming people that literally word-vomited explanations of plausible possibilities, that actually could help you to ‘believe’? You’re just a poser, trying to relate, but is actually very discriminatory. I also found you to be very ignorant. You had the perfect opportunity to learn and expand your perspective, but for whatever reason, you deliberately denied it. It’s like you’re insisting on staying as the frog in the well. Hahaha, be ignorant all you want then, whatever floats your boat, right? It’s just really funny tho how you contradicted yourself to save your argument hahaha.
And what is so wrong to believe what I think, especially since I have history as my guidance? Unlike you, I don’t go telling others what kind of way they should think. I was just showing how I could think like that way. I don’t give a fuck if they agree or not. Oh, also don’t pretend that your first post I responded wasn’t influenced by my earlier post, where I was talking about respect. Because a couple posts later after my post, the only one who brought up respect topic, you just suddenly went on rampage, shaming and forcing others to be like you. You even got cheered on because of it. Yay, cool you. If you truly “genuinely wanna know your thoughts” and love having “polite discussion/arguments” as you presented yourself to be, why didn’t you tag and invite me for a discussion, instead of being shady like that? I think it would be more civil than what we’re having right now. Alas, now I’m convinced you have never been willing to listen to other side after rereading your interactions with them and with me. Huh.. so much for genuineness. Fake.
Hahahaha what even is this? Okay… So, the fact someone can use their brain to make logical reasoning means they are cold. The fact that someone acknowledges that struggle for power in history is not fairytale happy ever after and most of the time consist of blood, wars, fratricide and other cruel things makes them heartless. HAHAHA lol Since when using your brain equals being cold? Since when acknowledging history is not full of rainbows and unicorns is heartless? Since when? That’s just a super ignorant statement. And here I thought for someone who’s so against cold heartless people, you would be the one on the more empathetic side. But apparently not. Also, you said I’m heartless because I said “All in all, she made her bed, so go fucking lie in it?”. Do you even understand what this mean? It means: You made a decision so you should accept its consequences, ergo be responsible of your choices. What is so cold about this? Huh, being responsible is cold and heartless nowadays? Apparently yes according to hotgirlshi. Hahahaa, snowflakes. Are you actually insinuating that it’s ok to quit every time you don’t feel like doing what you had chosen before? And I thought adversity and responsibility are supposed to help humans progress in their life. It’s like saying it’s ok for teenage parents to abandon their kid because they’re not ready yet for becoming parents, albeit consenting to sex without protection.
Now, I reread your argument again, I think you assume by yourself that my ‘being responsible’ statement means I want her to forever live under the shadow of dowun. Hahaha fuck no, when did I ever write that? Show me! All I’m saying all this time is she has to be responsible of her choice by completing her part of the deal. Before you got mad, snowflakes, let me elaborate more. She has to complete her deal. If in the process of completing her deal, she got more power more equal to dowun, then why not? Why can’t this happen? That’s good for her. It means she’s learning to become a proper queen. But again, like any other decent human beings, she should fulfil her contract, too. And why would I want her to be oppressed all the time? smh She’s not innocent, indeed, but she doesn’t deserve being oppressed
Ngl, I first thought they’re gonna be that typical romantic powerful couple duo. A story of ‘stupid warm princess taught her stoic man to see the joy of keeping in touch with emotions’ kind of troupe. Then, as I read further, it’s more political than romance. Well, that’s actually more interesting. However, never I demand her to be a fucking puppet all her life like what you think. You’re the one who’s assuming I meant that, because you’re already biased. You read negatively of what I said without even bother to understand what I’m truly saying. And no, being a responsible person doesn’t mean a person is cold and heartless, which is stupid. It just shows some people value and recognize the importance of responsibility in their life. But hey, if by your definition that being able to use my brain effectively and being a responsible person equals with cold heartless person, then so be it. I’m a super mega ultra cold heartless bitch.
Also another ridiculous thing from you is how you can literally equalize fictional character with real life people that appreciate dowun. Hahaha. You said I’m cold heartless because I like dowun, right? Alright, I’ll take it. The same can be applied to you, by using your ‘equalizing logic’, it means you’re the same as your beloved FL. In other words, you are a greedy twisted hypocrite. Hahahaa, see how ridiculous this is.
And again, we are free to think whatever and however we want to think. If someone wants to wait until the story is finished to make up their opinions, that’s ok. If someone wants to think ahead even before the story is finished, then go ahead, do it. That’s ok, too. If someone wants to miss the whole point of the story and make their own narrative, then that’s also ok. Do whatever you want. That’s ok. What is not ok is trying to force others to be like you and shaming others who are not like you. Who the fuck are you to tell us how to behave when we’re reading a fucking story?! And what I mean about shaming others? It’s the fact that you could easily call others ‘in denial’, ‘cold’, and ‘heartless’ just because you disagree with them. Ah, don’t tell me when you consciously chose those words to describe people who can appreciate dowun, you didn’t have the slightest intention to hurt us at all. Don’t say that you didn’t know there’s a risk it will hurt other people feelings by using those words. Because I’m aware when I decided to be mean and sarcastic in this and previous post, I did it knowing there’s a risk that I could inflict pain to you, at least emotionally. There’s must be something wrong with you if you don’t know that and just insult others out of spite.
You are so passionate in opposing anyone who can appreciate dowun, because you found dowun evil, since he hurt a lot of people. Yet, in real life, you’re hurting other people first through your words so easily, coz they don’t follow your opinions. And I thought since you are so against hurting others, you would never do it to others. Apparently not. But, you know what... there’s a name for the type of person who promotes one thing, but does the exact opposite of it. What is it? Starting with h.. ah, hypocrites!
Also ironic! Ironic how the ones who call others in denial are the ones who are not able to see nor accept the fact that their fav character is not as good as they would like her to be. Ironic how the one who is so hell-bent in hating the fictional character that has done a lot of hurtful things in the story is the one who ended up hurting others first with his/her words in real life. Ironic how in every situation like this, whether virtual or in real world, the ones who call out other people first are the ones who deserve to be called out in the first place. Simply ironic.
Huh, that’s weird. You could type long just fine when you were passionately telling what others should/shouldn’t do before. Well, maybe wasn’t as long as mine, since your post has nothing but feelings. But why so suddenly now? Hm, I wonder. Maybe, rather than “not feel like typing a lot lol”, you’re just purposely ignoring almost all my arguments because you don’t have anything to help with your arguments? Hm?
How do you like it being shamed in return?
Additional points for my previous post:
I forgot adding this. You wanna know why I keep mentioning about the ‘affair’, right? Because that’s actually how it looks by the other characters living in the story. Sure we can say it’s not true as the reader, because we got the whole complete information more than what the characters know, meaning the only people who know about the true nature of their ‘betrothal’ are both of them, the author and the readers. Shocking! So, no wonder there’re rumors, because what they did looks inappropriate to the other characters in the story. That’s why I said as the queen, she should mind how she conduct her affairs. It’s just gonna reflect poorly on her. Even atm she’s just a queen in name, she’s still more prone to harms and danger comparing to those with lower status than her.
This also happened with baekhan when he chose to switch master. As the reader, we could say he was gaining new ‘aspiration’ to justify serving another master. But for the other characters in the story, he does look opportunistic. This is represented best by what his friend said: “I did use to respect you. The thing is the person I respected was a great swordsman ready to lay down his life for his master, not a coward who’d switch loyalties for his own benefit”. Hotgirlshi, have you ever bothered trying to see it this way, consider what other charcters see? Or any other ways? Obviously not, since you’re busy being emotional over seeing dowun is still breathing and alive, thus your fl and baekhan can’t be together happily ever after. Awwww saddd.
Oh, your logic about ‘this respect of yours’ is phenomenal. Yes, he manages everything because he wanted to. And do you know why else? Because she lets him. Why? Not out of respect, but because she realized she has no real power as a queen, just in name. That’s why she can’t have more power because she has no real power to begin with. That’s why baekhan told her to use his people as power, because even baekhan realized she’s just a nobody if there’s no royal blood and actually powerless in the palace. Dowun is in control because he holds more power than her in the palace. With your logic of ‘she respects him that’s why she lets him manage’ is as ridiculous as saying your boss can do their job because the fact that the employee, which is you, respects the boss, thus you let your boss do their job. In reality, it’s because the boss is the boss, that’s why they can do their job, regardless they earn you respect or not, and you have no power to refrain them from working, unless you want to get fired. Ridiculous.
To all the people who are not involved in these little shenanigans, I am sorry. I do realize that I wrote a long post, or mini essay lol, because I tend to write a lot, just so that I could deliver my message clearly. And I didn’t expect some people would read it other than the ones involved and felt disturbance. I should’ve known better since it’s tagged as spoiler. And I agree, the comment section is toxic. Unfortunately, I’m also part of the problem, so again, I would like to say sorry.
Some people might wonder why I’m doing all this (or not at all lol hahaha). It’s not just because “I want and I can do it”, it’s also simply because I hate discrimination. It is never been about who has the most correct view and such. The real problem is telling others to think like what you think is right and shaming them if others have different opinions. I thought this is a free forum. I thought we’re living in the 21st where freedom is supposedly held high in the society. Why not let other people think however they like? Why you have to be shady to others in the first place? Why shamed them? You don’t pay their bills either, so why u so angry when they share different opinions from you? You don’t like being shamed back either, do you? Why can’t people have different opinions without being jerks to each other?
Other reason is because I’m petty haha surprised. This is what I know: when you are willing to insult other people first, it also means you’re accepting the risk to be insulted back, sometimes harsher than what you’ve given. So, only shame others if you are ready to be shamed in return.
I hope this last post would be the end of this unnecessary useless drama. If the other person is going to reply again, welp, their decision, but I won’t be responding anymore. I agree with someone here that it’s better to be back to this site after the story is completely finished. Once again, I am sorry. Ciao <3.
No, it’s analysis. Assumption can only happen if I have no proof whatsoever to back up my arguments, or just arguing solely based on feelings like you always did. Before you’re saying “excuses”, now “assumption”. You’re just changing the word with the same intention to degrade opinions that aren’t suitable to your taste. And what the hell do you want? You’re the one who challenged my perspective on lil bro’s situation, even when I already told you that I already agree with someone else’s arguments you had Interacted before, thus I don’t feel the need to repeat it again. You said “Are you just purposely ignoring it bc it doesn't help you with your argument?” Yet, after I gave you my proper answer, you closed one eye, dismissed it because you can’t handle the truth, and regarded it as “twisting the story”. You even said “we have to wait his pov first” now in your latest respond, after deliberately asked the question. Why you asked then if you think we should wait?? So, should I just not answer your question at all then? Huh, If I didn’t answer it, the next thing I know, you’re just gonna repeat the same provocative remark, just with different wording. Or is that what you intended all along? Provocation? Huh, I see. At the very least, even if you only wanted to provoke me and see me as unworthy coz I’m a cold heartless bitch, give recognition to the fact that Asian values, culture and history are the basis of the background setting of the story, since this is an Asian historical political based story. Don’t regard it as if I made all this up without any logical reasoning.
And “twisting the story however I want to see it”? Oh, really? So, I’m the one who’s twisting the story by analyzing it based on real life facts and what is going on in the story, while you’re the one here who kept insisting the fl is a sacrificial angel that has never done anything for her own gain. while in fact in the story itself, she has confessed to baekhan that she is “able to become like him because, somewhere deep inside me, I was the same as him. Both dowun and I were greedy and somewhat twisted.” by herself. I would like to ask to anyone who read this: How can some confess willingly to other people that she is greedy if she hasn’t realized and admitted it to herself that she is greedy in the first place beforehand? How can someone be greedy if she hasn’t realized by herself that she has personal desires and actively did things to promote that said greediness? Again, for the 2nd times I’m asking you, who’s the one in denial? Who’s the one twisting the characteristics of their favorite however you want to see it, when the character herself realized she is not as good as you made her out to be? Use your common sense, it’s not that hard.
Oh, another thing about your beloved FL. I really ‘love’ how she felt guilty to lil bro, that she “still regret what happened then”, but only apologized to lil bro when she only needed his help. If she’s truly regretful, then when they had tea together earlier, why she didn’t say sorry at that time? Why she only said sorry when lil bro reminded her of that event and when she knew his testimony would help her to release baekhan from punishment? Wow, she’s truly the best person ever. Very admirable. From now on, I should only apologize to people I hurt when I need them because apparently a 'good' person does that.
And you are right, both of us don’t know the backstory, yet. Hell, I don’t even know if there’s gonna be a backstory at all. In other words, it makes us equally clueless about his backstory. However, different from you, I’m not so clueless with the values and culture in the story that could help me with figuring out his actions. With that said, how can you be so sure that all these values, norms and culture I’ve mentioned don’t influence the story at all, to the point that you believe this is all just assumptions? as if these are not real Asian values and culture and I only made up stuffs? As if there’s no such thing as collectivism culture in Asia? As if there’s no such things as underhanded political tricks? And by god, there’s definitely no such thing as harsh Asian upbringing?! I must be a really powerful person to be able to make up history on a whim just so it could help my analysis.
You said we’ve never been shown his pov as your argument and I agree. Especially about what he truly feels about his bro, his family, and his situation. Mind you, there’s a difference between what someone could think about something and what someone could feel about something. So again, how can you be so sure that he’s truly abandoning his bro, since there’s no pov. How can you be so sure he was not trying to save his bro from harsher punishment, considering the possibilities if they failed, lil bro would get harsher punishment from their own clan? Even worse, he could be shunned by his own clan. Why can’t someone think he’s not truly abandoning his brother, since there has been no pov of him about that situation at all? Oh, because he wants to make sure his long-term goal is achieved? Ok, sure, agree. Then, why can’t it be because of both reasons, to achieve his goal and save his bro at the same time? Why can he only be operated by one motivation? Ever heard of the saying of killing two birds with one stone?
You see, humans are complex creature. There’re various combining reasons why someone did what they did. It’s not just as simple as black and white. We have always been living in the grey area. Even when someone’s buying certain shoes, there’re lots of factors could be found behind it. Ex: why they bought it? Because it’s the trend. Why they had to buy shoes that are in trend? Because their friends did it, too. Then, why does it matter if the friends did it, too? Because they want to feel validated. Why they have to feel validated? Because maybe they’re not confident about themselves, and so on. Well, this is just an example, since buying something could either simpler or more complex than this, depending on the person and situation. But, I just want to show that behind every choice, there’s not just consequences to the said choice, but there’re factors that could influence the process of making that decision, including personality, societal norms, culture, environment, values, education, childhood experience, parenting style and other things that I could not think of atm. Since his backstory is not up yet, that’s why we are not sure what to think of his true reasonings. But, doesn’t mean we are not allowed to figure it out on our own, using what is shown in the story and what is known in real life. And why can’t we use what exists in real life as the basis, since every fiction contains enough reality to help us to relate to the story?
You said we have to wait first, but why? Why wait when we can think now? And it’s not like I force you or even try to make you or anyone else to agree with my perspective. I also never said my analysis is definitely right. You just asked for it, (well, more like you provoked me) and I simply answered it. Unlike someone else, who #cough# keep telling other people how they should/shouldn’t think #cough#, I only stated in details how I could think this way. It’s actually you, the one who try to convert others to be like you by telling them how they should think and shaming them if they don’t follow you.
Look, just because I try to figure out his motives and choices by analyzing and connecting real life Asian values, culture and historical facts with what’s happening in the story so far, doesn't mean that it’s gonna be 100% right. For all I know, it could be completely wrong, it could be right on point, or in between. However, since there’s a possibility it could be true, I don’t see why not I couldn’t hold this view. And I never deny he’s a guy who’s willing to do anything for his goals, nor try to make him to be seen as a good person. Again, there’s a difference with agreeing and being able to understand what kind of environment and situation the story is taking place at. What I wrote wasn’t agreeing but only explaining how Asian values, norms and culture at ancient imperialism era could heavily influence the background of the story, meaning the values, norms, and culture are gonna be a reflection of what ancient imperialism in Asia looked like. If you still couldn’t differentiate this, then what can I say.. maybe I’m talking to a brick wall all this time.
How can I be sure that this is Asian influenced story? Because this is a fucking Asia historical political story. Unless, this turns out to be a 15th century medieval Europe political story, then you have every right to call me ‘in denial’, even if I only mention the word “Asia” in discussion.
Wow. That’s a really unbelievably dumb question. Hahaha, it seems every explanation of using sympathy to survive in palace politics and other explanations didn’t go through that thick skull of yours. You’re missing the whole point of the argument. #Le sigh.., fine, I should’ve worded it better for people like you. He needs to make an illusion, what kind of illusion depends on the situation, to gain sympathy. In short, making illusion to gain sympathy. Most of the time can be done by making someone looks pitiful because it’s the easiest and fastest way to gain sympathy. I don’t know where you’re living in or what kind of culture you grew up with or what kind of genre you like to read, however anyone who is familiar with any Asian historical political story, written or on screen, would definitely understand what I mean by making illusion to gain sympathy. What’s else screaming pitiful than kneeling soaked in the rain, begging for forgiveness after making a mistake? It’s the oldest trick in the book and it’s not that hard to understand. The main point of this particular trick is to make illusion to other people that you are pitiful enough, no matter if it’s true or not, so people would sympathize with you. It’s called emotional manipulation. And palace is full of people, therefore is full of emotions, and that’s why palace politics is full of this kind of manipulation. You said it yourself that dowun is manipulative, then why can’t you see this manipulative trick from him? Even to this day, not just in asia, people would still use this trick to their own advantages. For example: recent case of Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. Back then, AH was supported by a lot of people when the case appeared in the court because she gained more sympathy from people, since she used her emotions more and showed her bruises to illustrate herself as the victim. But now, after JD told his side of story, people are now screaming justice for him. Why he didn’t gain sympathy before, even when he’s actually not the abuser? Because he never showed his tears nor showed his scars to the public. Still not convinced? Then what about false rape report cases. There are cases where women came crying to the police and told sob story about her imaginary rape and the said rapist would get jailed without a thorough investigation. I’m not saying all rape cases are like this, but there are some cases indeed. And just because the amount is not as much as the real rape cases, doesn’t make it ok for women to use their tears to convict innocent people. I use western cases more, because it has easier access if some people are interested on the topic. Oh, still not convinced? Then you could read some basic historical manhua, like Slaughter Queen Reborn or First Miss Reborn. There’s a lot of example of “pity party” tricks to win conflicts in the household. Or you could just straight away read politics in harem through concubines’ records on internet. But, still not convinced after reading it? Well.. whatever then.
You don’t think it’s a valid argument because dowun never said it? Ok, then let’s use your logic, ‘it’s only true if it’s written in the story’. However, there’s a problem with this logic, you just haven’t realized it yet that you have contradicted yourself. You said it has to be written to be accepted. Then, why didn’t you believe when I stated FL has her own personal desires and had done things willingly to achieve her own interests, because in the story the FL has confessed she is “greedy and somewhat twisted”. However, you keep insisting she is somehow never done anything for herself, not even once. Why can’t you accept the fact she is not as good as you made her out to be since it’s already been written in the story. The fact this is written by the author themselves has even stronger legitimacy than any of my arguments. But why won’t you recognize it then? So, for dowun, everything should be told in details, but when it’s fl’s turn, even if it has been blatantly stated in the story, it’s ok to see the other way and pretended it never happened? Double standards.
I see you have been biased from the beginning and never even bother trying to understand, though you said “I would like to believe that dowun does care about people who love him”. Oh yeah? Then why don’t you give him the benefit of the doubt? If you truly would like to believe in dowun, then why are you shaming people that literally word-vomited explanations of plausible possibilities, that actually could help you to ‘believe’? You’re just a poser, trying to relate, but is actually very discriminatory. I also found you to be very ignorant. You had the perfect opportunity to learn and expand your perspective, but for whatever reason, you deliberately denied it. It’s like you’re insisting on staying as the frog in the well. Hahaha, be ignorant all you want then, whatever floats your boat, right? It’s just really funny tho how you contradicted yourself to save your argument hahaha.
And what is so wrong to believe what I think, especially since I have history as my guidance? Unlike you, I don’t go telling others what kind of way they should think. I was just showing how I could think like that way. I don’t give a fuck if they agree or not. Oh, also don’t pretend that your first post I responded wasn’t influenced by my earlier post, where I was talking about respect. Because a couple posts later after my post, the only one who brought up respect topic, you just suddenly went on rampage, shaming and forcing others to be like you. You even got cheered on because of it. Yay, cool you. If you truly “genuinely wanna know your thoughts” and love having “polite discussion/arguments” as you presented yourself to be, why didn’t you tag and invite me for a discussion, instead of being shady like that? I think it would be more civil than what we’re having right now. Alas, now I’m convinced you have never been willing to listen to other side after rereading your interactions with them and with me. Huh.. so much for genuineness. Fake.
Hahahaha what even is this? Okay… So, the fact someone can use their brain to make logical reasoning means they are cold. The fact that someone acknowledges that struggle for power in history is not fairytale happy ever after and most of the time consist of blood, wars, fratricide and other cruel things makes them heartless. HAHAHA lol Since when using your brain equals being cold? Since when acknowledging history is not full of rainbows and unicorns is heartless? Since when? That’s just a super ignorant statement. And here I thought for someone who’s so against cold heartless people, you would be the one on the more empathetic side. But apparently not. Also, you said I’m heartless because I said “All in all, she made her bed, so go fucking lie in it?”. Do you even understand what this mean? It means: You made a decision so you should accept its consequences, ergo be responsible of your choices. What is so cold about this? Huh, being responsible is cold and heartless nowadays? Apparently yes according to hotgirlshi. Hahahaa, snowflakes. Are you actually insinuating that it’s ok to quit every time you don’t feel like doing what you had chosen before? And I thought adversity and responsibility are supposed to help humans progress in their life. It’s like saying it’s ok for teenage parents to abandon their kid because they’re not ready yet for becoming parents, albeit consenting to sex without protection.
Now, I reread your argument again, I think you assume by yourself that my ‘being responsible’ statement means I want her to forever live under the shadow of dowun. Hahaha fuck no, when did I ever write that? Show me! All I’m saying all this time is she has to be responsible of her choice by completing her part of the deal. Before you got mad, snowflakes, let me elaborate more. She has to complete her deal. If in the process of completing her deal, she got more power more equal to dowun, then why not? Why can’t this happen? That’s good for her. It means she’s learning to become a proper queen. But again, like any other decent human beings, she should fulfil her contract, too. And why would I want her to be oppressed all the time? smh She’s not innocent, indeed, but she doesn’t deserve being oppressed
Ngl, I first thought they’re gonna be that typical romantic powerful couple duo. A story of ‘stupid warm princess taught her stoic man to see the joy of keeping in touch with emotions’ kind of troupe. Then, as I read further, it’s more political than romance. Well, that’s actually more interesting. However, never I demand her to be a fucking puppet all her life like what you think. You’re the one who’s assuming I meant that, because you’re already biased. You read negatively of what I said without even bother to understand what I’m truly saying. And no, being a responsible person doesn’t mean a person is cold and heartless, which is stupid. It just shows some people value and recognize the importance of responsibility in their life. But hey, if by your definition that being able to use my brain effectively and being a responsible person equals with cold heartless person, then so be it. I’m a super mega ultra cold heartless bitch.
Also another ridiculous thing from you is how you can literally equalize fictional character with real life people that appreciate dowun. Hahaha. You said I’m cold heartless because I like dowun, right? Alright, I’ll take it. The same can be applied to you, by using your ‘equalizing logic’, it means you’re the same as your beloved FL. In other words, you are a greedy twisted hypocrite. Hahahaa, see how ridiculous this is.
And again, we are free to think whatever and however we want to think. If someone wants to wait until the story is finished to make up their opinions, that’s ok. If someone wants to think ahead even before the story is finished, then go ahead, do it. That’s ok, too. If someone wants to miss the whole point of the story and make their own narrative, then that’s also ok. Do whatever you want. That’s ok. What is not ok is trying to force others to be like you and shaming others who are not like you. Who the fuck are you to tell us how to behave when we’re reading a fucking story?! And what I mean about shaming others? It’s the fact that you could easily call others ‘in denial’, ‘cold’, and ‘heartless’ just because you disagree with them. Ah, don’t tell me when you consciously chose those words to describe people who can appreciate dowun, you didn’t have the slightest intention to hurt us at all. Don’t say that you didn’t know there’s a risk it will hurt other people feelings by using those words. Because I’m aware when I decided to be mean and sarcastic in this and previous post, I did it knowing there’s a risk that I could inflict pain to you, at least emotionally. There’s must be something wrong with you if you don’t know that and just insult others out of spite.
You are so passionate in opposing anyone who can appreciate dowun, because you found dowun evil, since he hurt a lot of people. Yet, in real life, you’re hurting other people first through your words so easily, coz they don’t follow your opinions. And I thought since you are so against hurting others, you would never do it to others. Apparently not. But, you know what... there’s a name for the type of person who promotes one thing, but does the exact opposite of it. What is it? Starting with h.. ah, hypocrites!
Also ironic! Ironic how the ones who call others in denial are the ones who are not able to see nor accept the fact that their fav character is not as good as they would like her to be. Ironic how the one who is so hell-bent in hating the fictional character that has done a lot of hurtful things in the story is the one who ended up hurting others first with his/her words in real life. Ironic how in every situation like this, whether virtual or in real world, the ones who call out other people first are the ones who deserve to be called out in the first place. Simply ironic.
Huh, that’s weird. You could type long just fine when you were passionately telling what others should/shouldn’t do before. Well, maybe wasn’t as long as mine, since your post has nothing but feelings. But why so suddenly now? Hm, I wonder. Maybe, rather than “not feel like typing a lot lol”, you’re just purposely ignoring almost all my arguments because you don’t have anything to help with your arguments? Hm?
How do you like it being shamed in return?
Additional points for my previous post:
I forgot adding this. You wanna know why I keep mentioning about the ‘affair’, right? Because that’s actually how it looks by the other characters living in the story. Sure we can say it’s not true as the reader, because we got the whole complete information more than what the characters know, meaning the only people who know about the true nature of their ‘betrothal’ are both of them, the author and the readers. Shocking! So, no wonder there’re rumors, because what they did looks inappropriate to the other characters in the story. That’s why I said as the queen, she should mind how she conduct her affairs. It’s just gonna reflect poorly on her. Even atm she’s just a queen in name, she’s still more prone to harms and danger comparing to those with lower status than her.
This also happened with baekhan when he chose to switch master. As the reader, we could say he was gaining new ‘aspiration’ to justify serving another master. But for the other characters in the story, he does look opportunistic. This is represented best by what his friend said: “I did use to respect you. The thing is the person I respected was a great swordsman ready to lay down his life for his master, not a coward who’d switch loyalties for his own benefit”. Hotgirlshi, have you ever bothered trying to see it this way, consider what other charcters see? Or any other ways? Obviously not, since you’re busy being emotional over seeing dowun is still breathing and alive, thus your fl and baekhan can’t be together happily ever after. Awwww saddd.
Oh, your logic about ‘this respect of yours’ is phenomenal. Yes, he manages everything because he wanted to. And do you know why else? Because she lets him. Why? Not out of respect, but because she realized she has no real power as a queen, just in name. That’s why she can’t have more power because she has no real power to begin with. That’s why baekhan told her to use his people as power, because even baekhan realized she’s just a nobody if there’s no royal blood and actually powerless in the palace. Dowun is in control because he holds more power than her in the palace. With your logic of ‘she respects him that’s why she lets him manage’ is as ridiculous as saying your boss can do their job because the fact that the employee, which is you, respects the boss, thus you let your boss do their job. In reality, it’s because the boss is the boss, that’s why they can do their job, regardless they earn you respect or not, and you have no power to refrain them from working, unless you want to get fired. Ridiculous.
To all the people who are not involved in these little shenanigans, I am sorry. I do realize that I wrote a long post, or mini essay lol, because I tend to write a lot, just so that I could deliver my message clearly. And I didn’t expect some people would read it other than the ones involved and felt disturbance. I should’ve known better since it’s tagged as spoiler. And I agree, the comment section is toxic. Unfortunately, I’m also part of the problem, so again, I would like to say sorry.
Some people might wonder why I’m doing all this (or not at all lol hahaha). It’s not just because “I want and I can do it”, it’s also simply because I hate discrimination. It is never been about who has the most correct view and such. The real problem is telling others to think like what you think is right and shaming them if others have different opinions. I thought this is a free forum. I thought we’re living in the 21st where freedom is supposedly held high in the society. Why not let other people think however they like? Why you have to be shady to others in the first place? Why shamed them? You don’t pay their bills either, so why u so angry when they share different opinions from you? You don’t like being shamed back either, do you? Why can’t people have different opinions without being jerks to each other?
Other reason is because I’m petty haha surprised. This is what I know: when you are willing to insult other people first, it also means you’re accepting the risk to be insulted back, sometimes harsher than what you’ve given. So, only shame others if you are ready to be shamed in return.
I hope this last post would be the end of this unnecessary useless drama. If the other person is going to reply again, welp, their decision, but I won’t be responding anymore. I agree with someone here that it’s better to be back to this site after the story is completely finished. Once again, I am sorry. Ciao <3.
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@lovingsushiroll Uhh excuse you...? Why did you do me like that? You just made it seem like i was the problem lol. Discrimination? Being allowed to have opinions? Omg no one stopping you from having opinions, but does not mean that it’s right. Since when could there be different right or wrongs? There is no such thing. There is a difference to what is accepted or not in a society, but right or wrong is absolute. What you just said meant whether it is right or wrong to sacrifice a baby to some unknown God depends on the other person’s opinions. No one can have a different right or wrong based on their opinions. Morally right and wrongs are absolute. You should not treat the people who loves you as tools and that’s where Dowun is wrong. Its sad that this is being discussed on.
Also, you have nothing to apologize for. No rule said we can not have discussions in the comment section. If people feel bothered by the discussion, then don’t read the comments. Simple. We should be allowed to discuss, the hell? I sure ain’t apologizing for nothing I did wrong. Ignore our comments and keep it moving people if it makes you feel uncomfortable. I didn’t find your comments toxic, altho you did type a lot lol. No rule said we can’t converse so do what you want.
Also, you have nothing to apologize for. No rule said we can not have discussions in the comment section. If people feel bothered by the discussion, then don’t read the comments. Simple. We should be allowed to discuss, the hell? I sure ain’t apologizing for nothing I did wrong. Ignore our comments and keep it moving people if it makes you feel uncomfortable. I didn’t find your comments toxic, altho you did type a lot lol. No rule said we can’t converse so do what you want.
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She has always had everything but at the same time nothing
Fed-Kun's army
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Lol to the comment section. This story stirs a lot in people. I'm always cautious when diving back in. There's just so much into it and it's all heavy.
It seems like there's nothing decided between Dowun and Baekhan so... I'll just be leaving without reading past where I am (ch 65). Gonna wait it out a bit longer. Props to anyone supporting her with Dowun or Baekhan. I'm in the "she should just live a normal life" faction. Hahaha Seriously though I just want her to be happy and I don't care about anyone else.
It seems like there's nothing decided between Dowun and Baekhan so... I'll just be leaving without reading past where I am (ch 65). Gonna wait it out a bit longer. Props to anyone supporting her with Dowun or Baekhan. I'm in the "she should just live a normal life" faction. Hahaha Seriously though I just want her to be happy and I don't care about anyone else.
