The brother incident was the most obvious about who he is as a person. Are you just purposely ignoring it bc it doesn't help you with your argument?
can’t you read english? i said i agreed with what the others that have interacted with you about this. but if you want to know my persepective about this, sure i’ll give it to you.
if dowun didn’t do what he did, to solely blame the mistake to his brother, then the one who would bear the punishment would be the whole clan. one person made a mistake, the whole community would bear the sin. that's the asian way back then. you can actually see this when dowun was explaining to fl of that event. “he took away the gift he gave you. do you not understand? as dogyeol’s punishment was shifted upon you, so was his crime. his majesty will never go back to you”, which means since fl is now affiliated with dowun's clan, she would also bear the consequences though she wasn't the culprit. also, all his efforts to teach her and engagement with her for the survival of the clan would amount to nothing.
then people would say, “but still it’s cruel of him to do his bro like that. how could you do that to your own family just for the sake of the clan?”. first of all, despite intentionally done or not, dowun’s bro made a mistake, so he should be responsible for it. second, in asian cultures especially in ancient times, there's this value where
collective interest surpasses personal interest, meaning their life aren't just for them anymore. it's not my survival, but our survival. dowun needs to make sure this petty mistake would not influence the livelihood of their clan’s interest. he needed to put the clan’s interest first before his bro’s interest. it was necessary of him to do that. it is one of asia's core values that was taught to everyone, even to this day, though it's not as hardcore as it's used to be. you can still see today the example of south korean males of age, where they have to be enlisted no matter if individually, they want it or not. the interest of the country holds more power than personal interest.
it’s different with the western culture where you are encouraged to show your individuality. the more unique, the better. if you do this in ancient asia time, you would be deemed as rebellious. so,
collectivism over individualism. but let’s say dowun defended his bro and reasoned his mistake as just a slip of the tongue. however, the king felt dissatisfied with it and exiled their clan, which means the clan’s interest is actually going further away from reaching their goal. what do you think would happen to dowun and his bro when they got back to the clan? do you think they would welcome them with warm feelings, say things like: “ah… it’s okay, champ. there’s always next year to reach our goal” and praise them for what they did?
also, it was because of politics. dowun needed to make sure that what he did would appease the king, so he could stay in the palace and do his works. that’s the politics back then. as the person affiliated with the offender, you need to satisfy the emperor first before anything else, wether you like it or not. because if he’s happy, you could live. if he’s not happy, he could just accuse you of things you didn’t do and chop your head. that’s the gist of it. and nobody would ever dare to disagree with that decision. that’s why, weak-minded and easily deceived people are not suitable to live in the palace. if the author really wanted to write the story as historically accurate as the old times, then it is understandable why he/she wrote dowun did that. dowun’s bro can’t understand this, then shame on him for being immature. looks like dowun’s bro would rather have his whole clan bear the sin of his mistake, than taking responsibility of his own mistake. yes yes, it’s sad he had to be punished because of being deceived, but mistake is a mistake nonetheless.
then another people would say, “but why should he left him alone in the rain like that? he could have just easily wait until the rain is over!” again, it’s palace politics. he needed to make an illusion that his brother has already repented his mistake and determined to be forgiven. that’s why you would see in other historical drama, someone would kneel for days in front of the head of the house’s room after making mistakes. also to gain sympathy of the palace people. to look more miserable is better. this is basic survival trick to live in the palace. you don’t to have to be ‘so in touch with emotions’ to know about this. everything is politics in the palace. then another would say again, “but he’s just a kid, that’s too harsh!!”. so if he’s a kid means he could never make mistakes? so if he’s a kid he should be forgiven for all his faults and never learn from it? maybe in western countries this could happen, but definitely not in asia. once you live in the palace, there are certain things you should never do. that was the law and nobody is exempted from that, even if you are old/young, rich/poor, royalty/commoner. make a mistake in the palace, then you have to be prepare to bear the consequences. even for commoners, if a child made mistakes, they would be punished by beating by the authority figure. that's just how asian raised their kids.
at least Dowun could have done was comfort the brother. I honestly see no harm in just hugging the bro bc that is his brother
this is such a western thing to say. i’m a half-chinese and half-southeastasian, living in asia my whole life, so i’m familiar with asian culture and values. my grandma was pure chinese born in the year ’25. she told me that when she or her siblings made mistakes, they would be punished hard and that’s it. no parents, no siblings or elders would come to you and give you hugs and kisses as a console. nobody. children were expected to be mature on their own. if people in the 1920’s can do this, how do you think people that live in much older times raised their children? heck, even when i grew up in the 90’s, i would still get that treatment. ‘console your kids after punishing them’ is a fairly new concept that is introduced to asian households. mind you that i’m talking about asians living in asia, not asian-american or another asian families that has assimilated with western culture.
I don't think you remember the events of the webtoon correctly.
no, the fl asked for help first, to teach her how to read. she asked first, because she wanted to be something more than what she was at that moment, i quote about fl’s thoughts of dowun :”this child is around my age, but he’s already impressive.
what can i do to be more like him.” then proceed the event when she asked his help and dowun asked back what she can give in returns. after that, the said proposal. yes, he took advantage of her situation, but didn’t force her. nobody forced her. even when dowun explained what kind of contract they would have, that it wouldn’t be based on feelings, she still agreed to it. nobody forced her. she took the proposal out of her own will, because she wanted to be
“more like dowun” and also because she has already fancied dowun. she had desires but she couln’t do it because of her poor situation. i quote: “
even if i wanted to, i probably wouldn’t have the opportunity to learn. my mother is gone, and nobody respects me. i was ignored even when i was in mortal danger, what can i do?”. she knew the proposal would allow her to be able to do those things. so, she did have done things for her own desires. and here you said she has never done anything once for herself. who’s in denial now? when dowun proposed, “i want to recover our clan’s glorious honor. i’ll also return it to you. what is yours as a royal. authority and power.”, she still didn’t refuse him. if she only wanted to be able to read, than she could just say “sorry, i only wanted to be able to read. no need for power or authority.” but she didn’t, because she wanted those things, too. how can i say this? because when dowun said to her, “do you wish to go back to that nearly broken down hut, to be ignored by even the lowest of the palace maids?”, she was silent because she didn’t want to go back to when she was still very miserable. if she really did affiliate with dowun only for being taught how to read, then at that time dowun said that, she would go right away to save the lil bro. she wouldn't care about losing favours with the king, as her goal, to be able to read, is already achieved. but that wasn't what happened, right?
innocent people, such as the bodyguard
again! another glorifying. first you said fl “sacrificed” everything for dowun, like she’s a saint who did all of those willingly without ever having any desires for herself or getting benefits in the process. now you said baekhan is innocent, like baekhan doesn’t have any faults at all. sure, he’s a nice guy, much nicer that dowun obviously, but innocent of any wrongdoings? no. what kind of innocent man would do things that were considered as inappropriate back then with someone that he’s supposed to guard in the palace? i could understand why honglyon did that, but what about him? what’s his excuse? love? omygod yes! how could i forget about this! it’s always been praiseworthy to choose love over your duty. that’s so professional of him. we all should strive to be as professional as baekhan in our job, so that we would be looked as innocent in public’s eyes.
If you know they are free to do that, why are you complaining about it?
i guess my explanation wasn’t clear enough. yes, dowun agreed to that, but as the queen, doesn't mean she could just act freely without any care. i don’t care who she has affairs with, but
HOW she does her affairs. i want to show how this ambiguous relationship of hers would reflect poorly on her characters because she did it with no regards to her position and situation. sure, go and have dates with your lover, but do it discreetly to the point nobody would ever gossip over it. when the rumours started, not only it gives disrespect to dowun (yes, i still think she should respect him, i’ll explain more later), but also disrespect to herself. nobody likes a scandalous queen. in asia, reputation is everything. no one likes to be led by someone with questionable reputation. this also could be a liability and bite her back later on when someone tries to challenge her honor and reputation as the queen, for example: someone like jayang. there’s a saying: “人要脸,树要皮","ren yao lian, shu yao pi”, “person must have face, tree must have skin”, meaning “Keeping a good reputation (face) is as essential as bark is to a tree”. you should always maintain your reputation/face at all cost. Maintaining one’s ‘face’ is actually a form of respect for yourself and respect to others in asia. if such small things like keeping face she can disregards, what kind of bigger things in the future she would dare to disregard.
but yeah he knew she was in love with him before the plan.... he is smart and she was obvious.
it means what it’s written. and what i meant by the plan is started from the moment he met fl in the dispensary to the moment they would be married, because i believe that meeting is not coincidental but deliberate. this matters to his character because he’s someone who’s deemed emotions as a weakness. the way i see it, he chose fl because he would have a more equal footing in the proposal than if he did the proposal with the other princess. that’s it. at least from what the story so far. dowun even stated he chose her over the other princess because she has more thirst than her. not because of love, just because she’s easier to handle.
for a manipulative person to not take advantage of her romantic feelings for him, that would be foolish. if he knew she was in love with him, then as manipulative as he is, why would he deny her everytime she asked for affections from him? if he knew the key to control honglyon is love, why didn’t he entertain her with that love, albeit superficial? perhaps dowun is smart, but not smart in everything as we made him to be, because if he wanted to be the ultimate manipulator, he would fake his feelings and give her affection she’s desperately needed. then she would never resist his plan and he would have the ultimate control of her.
“but he was so kind to her in the beginning. of course it was him faking his feelings”. he was kind to her out of courtesy and respect as she was the royal princess. like i said, respect is one of asia's core values in society. that’s why when he first introduced his lil bro to her, he told him to be watchful of his words, because his bro was acting disrespectfully at that time. he took advantage of her, not because he wanted to make her fall for him. again, it’s just weird if a manipulative person knew ‘she’s obviously in love with him’ and not use that to be one of his weapons to control her. because he never faked affection, that’s why they grew distant and always in conflict now.
and yes he did everything for both of them. he has his interests, while also looking out for hers. why i can say this? because he doesn’t involve with his bro and father’s scheme related to jayang.
She let him manage everything which is what HE wanted to do.
that is not respect. it’s a delegation. well, to be exact she was just letting him to take over, but it doesn’t mean she respects him. in asian culture, since this is a historical asian story, respect is shown through your attitude, choice of words, and gestures, which also would influence your feelings about responsibility and decision makings. fl’s actions ‘till now, to always go against him, has indicated that she has no respect for dowun, her business partner and her only teacher. teacher is one of the most important figures to be respected besides parents and elders in asian community, especially in east asian countries. why? because teacher is the source of knowledge. there’s a chinese proverb says, “一日为师,终身为父” yi ri wei shi, zhong shen wei fu “one day as your teacher, like a father for a lifetime.”, meaning “Even if someone is your teacher for only a day, you should regard him like your father for the rest of your life.”. that just shows how we asians took our teachers seriously. “but dowun did this out of interest!”. duh, do you think all teachers do it just because of passion for teaching? no, even back then, some people did it for a living and nothing’s wrong with that. does that mean just because we paid them money, we shouldn’t respect them? definitely no. teacher are people who taught us knowledge to make our life better. i can’t never deny the fact that because of my teachers taught me beneficial skills, i can be better at doing my job today. even if one day i got estranged from my teachers, i would still respect them. and it's the same with fl. because his teachings, she can gain more favours and good impressions with the king. no matter if she likes him or not, he is her teacher and she should respect him. like him? doesn't have to.
also, if she truly respected him, she would make sure to do her responsibility in their agreement. but in this case, she hasn’t done her part and already go against him with dowun’s bro, when she has already got all the benefits. i never met anyone in real life who would feel overjoyed or okay when their business partner betray their alliance after the other person got all the benefits and the other hasn’t. i haven’t met such person, have you? be responsible of your own choice wether you like it or not. don't back out when things are not in your favour anymore.
just additional info, in western, if you talk with people with no eye contact, it would be seen as rude. in asia, a place with stricter rules for etiquettes, if you can’t even look in the eye of the person you have alliance and engaged with, that would be considered rude. however back then, for females and males of age, to actually make eye contact with others beside your betrothed/husband would be deemed as being seductive, inappropriate and disrespectful. just in case you didn’t know.
should not be against the mc's decision to collaborate with his brother against him bc he is the one that caused this to happen.
wow. i don’t think it’s right to support any form of betrayal in any stories, especially if the other person has always done their part accordingly. but in order to support your favorite characters, you would actually pardon such action. that says a lot about your character. even in the old times, betrayal has never been seen as honourable. tbh, as the reader who can see what’s actually going on in the story as a whole, i think fl should be more wary to dowun’s bro than to dowun. why? because he saved jayang, the only person who has the eligibility to challenge fl’s position. there’s only 3 outcomes i can think of related to jayang:
1. as a replacement to fl, we know about this already, since dowun’s bro and father saved her for that,
2. as a pawn to set up dowun so that he would be deemed as a traitor and have him and jayang killed, since dowun’s bro doesn’t like both of them. if it's like this, does it mean dowun's bro would be the one to get marry to fl or what? if it's not, then who would be the one to carry their clan's interest? or,
3. again, as a bait to set up dowun. the difference is fl would also get killed by dowun’s bro because he’s actually still salty by what happened back then, since fl did nothing, either, though he already said he’s okay with it. but he could be lying, who knows. then he and jayang would get married. and he would use jayang the same way as dowun to honglyon, because he hates her, but needs her royal blood.
why i can think like this? because he hid jayang, but still approached fl to go against dowun. then what his true motive?
if you think about it, dowun’s bro is actually more dangerous than dowun. because he’s cunning and also understand more about human emotions than dowun. plus, he has some sort of emotional scar made by the 3 of them: dowun, fl, jayang. in fl’s defense, she doesn’t know that dowun’s bro hid jayang, that’s why she trusts him. another reason is because she has feelings for baekhan, which dowun deemed as a threat. so yeah, she would betray dowun for her love. and that’s actually what she has always been doing, acting according to her emotions. when she doesn’t like them anymore, she would discard them. when she’s ‘in love’, she would follow them, like when dowun proposed the plan to her. and what dowun’s bro and father are doing right now should be considered as traitorous, since keeping a royal refugee like that is an act of treachery.
i still think that she shouldn’t betray dowun, why? first, because it would only made her character looks worse than what she is right now. second, what’s made her different than dowun if she did that? at least now, we could still say she has a heart even though she might not be that wise in making decisions. say, she betrayed dowun with reasoning such as his actions were immoral. then shouldn’t she go against him from long time ago, and saved dowun’s bro, someone who’s also nice to her, when that thing happened in the past? but she didn’t because it was beneficial for her at that time and she still had feelings for dowun then. the only reason she was so against dowun now is because of her feelings of 'love' has shifted from dowun to baekhan. it’s only immoral for her if it’s related to her beloved baekhan and if it’s not beneficial for her, since he is her lover. what’s the difference with dowun who did things for his own gain, if she also did the same immoral thing? generally, betrayal has never brought anything good in life.
Removing anyone he thinks is a potential threat
of course he would do that because the bodyguard threatened his existence. ever since the time skip, whenever baekhan’s around, the fl would do things the opposite of what dowun's intended, and that’s why it’s threatening to him. i do understand why he has to go to such length. that was the “survival of the fittest” era, especially in palace. if by becoming cold, cruel and manipulative would make sure his survival, then so be it. it’s the way people lived back then. it’s not right, but that’s how it was. it’s not the same with modern age, though there are still some countries at war, we don’t have to fight our neighbours to mark our land, like what people back then did to maintain their territory. we would still experience "dog eats dog world" moment here and there, but it won't be on the same level or intensity as back then. that's why to be cruel is necessary.
people kept forgetting that this is a historical political drama where it shows a story in one of the cruelest place on earth when the time setting is also harsh and cruel. it’s a foolish thing to think just because he is a mere royal guardian, he would never be involved in any politics in the palace, especially in this context, baekhan has romantic feelings for his queen, which is taboo back then. so who should be blamed for this? the man who tried to maintain his survival in this dog eats dog world, or the man who forgot his duties and has inappropriate feelings for his employer? none. for me, baekhan should know better that his action isn’t appropriate and would incite fury. and dowun should also realise fl wasn’t as clueless as before and targeting baekhan would not make her listen to him.
it’s easy for us to say “we want a leader who’s both smart and have a heart” nowadays, because living is so much easier than the old times. in politics back then, having a heart is not as important as knowing how to win the hearts of the people. there's a different in those two. the emperor would attend meeting about public interests for hours, lived his life according to the schedule that's supervised by the eunuchs and officials, also take consorts and concubines from family of people in power in the royal court. this was not necessarily always have his best interest at heart, but must do it, to appease his people. though at the same time, he would gain reputation as benevolent and caring emperor, plus stability in the court and more power in his palace. the emperors lived such a rigid lifestyle that was controlled by traditions. heck, they would even have less freedom than common people. say he refused to take more concubines out of consideration for his beloved empress, this would raise a chaos in the royal court, which could lead to usurpation. the emperor must do what he needed to do wether it’s right or not in today’s people’s eyes, because that’s how people lived back then in imperial palace. no wonder they would be taught to have a harden heart since young age. turning off your emotions and see things just as it is would actually help someone to stay sane in that kind of situation. that’s why you would read so many stories describing crown princes/emperors to have been numb of their own emotions. and why emperors were also used to be depicted as “smiling tiger”, because they looked gentle from the outside, but sly inside. even to this day, i can’t say for sure that all leaders have hearts and genuinely care about their people, cause we can’t read their minds, but definitely they know how to win people. it’s just that everything’s related to politics is dirty. people with weak mind and weak heart should never get involved in politics.
dowun doesn’t have a heart, yet. i don’t believe any human was born evil, like some antichrist baby in the omen, but can be evil because of environment. living in old times, you were shaped to be able to make cruel decisions for yourself and others. like dowun said, “the imperial court has always been this kind of place. if you do not have power, it is the most suffocating prison there is.”. so it’s understandable why people in the palace would go such lengths just for power. i’m not agreeing with this, but that was how people lived to survive in the ancient time, especially if they were involved with the imperial palace. but even if he’s cold, manipulative and sly, it doesn’t close the possibility of him growing his heart. same as in fl’s case, she was so weak-minded and insecure at the beginning of the story because of her environment, but she can still grow up to be stronger than before, though, she’s using too much of her emotions atm. however, it also doesn’t close the possibility that fl would think using her brain more than just her heart.
The whole point of you responding like this is to defend Dowun. Trying to convince me that what he is doing is understanding when it is not.
what a way to see things. i argued back because i want to do it and i can do it. if you can tell people what they can/can’t do, why i couldn’t comment back on your arguments? this is a free forum right, where you can express your thoughts freely.
yes, i never excused dowun or supported his way. i only stated why i can understand why he did things he did. not even once i said that what he did was admirable or we should all follow him here. never. there’s a different with being able to understand and agreeing. please do remember, this is a historical asian political drama with a tragedy tag on it. if you keep using your 21st century western centric glasses, it isn't weird if you would never be able to understand why he did the things he did. so of course, things won’t be pretty. of course that would be a lot of schemes and manipulation. of course there would be betrayal, that i would never support in any way or in any other stories, but what can i do if the writer made it that way. also, i never told you to understand this things. i merely stated in details how i can see things the way i see it. not telling you to do things you don’t want. wether after all of these you still choose not to understand, it’s on you, not me. actually, you were the one who kept telling people to stop thinking the way they want to think, just because you disagree. to the point that you would even said
, as in something’s wrong with us?? you said i'm cold af because my arguments resonance with dowun's way?? not true. maybe because i read more about political science than you would ever read in your whole life, that's why i can understand about the politics in this story. you judged us first, because you can’t understand our pov. never in any of my previous posts here i judged your character based on your heavily glorifying fl-baekhan opinions, not until you judged me first. why can’t i judge you back if you did it first?
it’s annoying to have someone imposing what you can/can’t do just because they don’t share the same values. it’s even more annoying to have someone you don’t know judged you because of it. instead of thinking “oh, these people have different upbringing, education, history, cultures and experience than me, that’s why they can see things differently”, you’d rather judge us for your own satisfaction.
and in the end, even after all of these long post, you would still regards this as excuses. smh.
overall, everything that happens to all these characters were because of their own doing. one is a schemer, one is a hypocrite and one is forgetting his duties. since this is more of a dark story, i think as of now, dowun would die because of betrayal. betrayed by who, i’m still not sure. perhaps fl, but i hope not, for the sake of herself. because like you said, dowun got what’s coming for him because his own doings. then it could also be applied to fl. if she betrayed dowun because of emotions, then she must be ready to be betrayed in return for the same exact reason. imo, i think her downfall would be because of herself, not because of dowun or baekhan. sure, they’ll be part of it, but her decision would be the ultimate reason why she lost everything.