Vinland Saga - Ch. 206 - Thousand Year Voyage Part 15

[endless]

Cmon Cordelia you win these

 

[Konrad2]

Thanks for the translation.

 

[mirai99]

Lol everyone in his camp is about to be slaughtered and he's still on the pacifist shtick that literally no one in his colony supports. It will be funny to see his tardbrain actions result in everything burning down around him. I wonder if he will still be all peace love and happiness if his wife and kids get scalped. Probably will coz the mangaka is a massive cuck.
"you didn't get the point of the story" nah the story is just ass now and it's clear it's all building up to some trauma porn ending, like the original history but told in a worse way.

It failed, because someone rebelled and brought the sword.

That being said, what you envision won't happen, because Cordelia will annihilate those guys..

 

[Swagner]

Piece of shits attacking a house and killing innocents.

... are we just forgetting that Thorfinn used to do the same thing?

 

[mirai99]

The whole "sword bad" thing was always a bit weak, pretty sure they took axes with them too and other stuff made from metal that might be attractive for the locals to take.
You can't live as a pacifist unless people agree to let you be or you're prepared to die for that believe, aka don't resist when people come and steal your stuff.

Yes they did. They took axes, because axes are tools.
There were whole pages where this was discussed and they came to conclusion that sword was only for war, so they ban swords.

 

[TheGodEmperor]

... are we just forgetting that Thorfinn used to do the same thing?

No, but he was a piece of shit too then, he knows he was ;P

 

[ShaiHH]

Why the fuck would being anti-war be the same thing as letting yourself get robbed...

Because it's usually not just anti-war, but anti-violence and this isn't modern world where there's enough Police to scare off most robbers.

 

[Swagner]

No, but he was a piece of shit too then, he knows he was ;P

Right, I'm just saying that some readers seem to have contracted a terminal case of protagonist-centered morality, where they're clamoring for and justifying escalation on one side (and complaining when Thorfinn doesn't go along with their idea of what he "should" do) when objectively both sides are in the wrong. At every step bad actors on both sides keep escalating hostilities, and the good actors on both sides fail to keep them in check, and that's not a conflict that will ever be resolved by saying "well this time we're totally justified in retaliating".

I think a lot of people are reading this as a stereotypical shonen manga, which often boil down to "there are good guys, and bad guys, and once the good guys beat all the bad guys everything will be great!", but Vinland Saga is structured more like a classical tragedy. Thorfinn's not "naive" like some people keep saying; naïveté would imply that he's not aware, but he went into this knowing that peace was a long shot, and accepted those odds. If he betrays his principles now, that would be the greatest possible failure, because he already knows where "an eye for an eye" leads; he wasted most of his life pursuing that hollow version of "justice". Even on a meta-narrative level the story demonstrates it by the way some of the audience can't even handle the idea of a fictional character not getting their comeuppance. Humans are that vengeful.

Settling Vinland will fail, because this isn't a heroic fantasy. This isn't a story where one man, no matter how strong or virtuous, can fix every problem by himself; the tribalistic, vengeful, cowardly nature of mankind is simply too big of a problem, even for a plucky band of "heroes". But so long as Thorfinn can at least prevent things from degrading to the point of his own early life, where in his pursuit of vengeance he not only wasted his own life but ruined the lives of countless others, it won't be a complete failure. Sometimes, you try your best and you don't succeed. But if you don't try at all, you'll never succeed. That's just how life works.

 

[SpiritusNox]

Maaaan, I was not expecting the killings to have already reached Arnheid. That's a lot.

I've generally been of the expectation that Vinland Saga will have a basically happy ending, even if not a utopian one, but we're really going to be testing that here huh lmao

 

[SpiritusNox]

Settling Vinland will fail, because this isn't a heroic fantasy. This isn't a story where one man, no matter how strong or virtuous, can fix every problem by himself; the tribalistic, vengeful, cowardly nature of mankind is simply too big of a problem, even for a pluck band of "heroes". But so long as Thorfinn can at least prevent things from degrading to the point of his own early life, where in his pursuit of vengeance he not only wasted his own life but ruined the lives of countless others, it won't be a complete failure. Sometimes, you try your best and you don't succeed. But if you don't try at all, you'll never succeed. That's just how life works.

More than that I've been expecting (and still mostly expect) the story's thesis to be something more along the lines of "there are some tasks that are so great that you'll never live to see them completed, and neither will your children or their children after them, but we should undertake them anyway because these are tasks that must be completed."

 

[Theozilla]

At the risk of making myself look ignorant, misunderstanding the intention of this arc and Yukimura, I find it funny some aren’t realizing what I think is trying to be portrayed here. As much of a pacifist Yukimura may be, he knows that one sided peace doesn’t work, there’s always another party that needs to agree, and if they don’t, “I have no enemies” only applies to one person. Yukimura isn’t trying to make Thorfinn come off as completely right, he is extremely naive, and at a loss when dealing with an entirely different culture.

Yukimura knows the peace Thorfinn seeks is naive, and humanity doesn’t allow for it. At no point was Thorfinn supposed to be looked at as perfect and completely correct, he over corrected with his mentality, and has been putting those he loves in danger for awhile now. That’s what makes this journey compelling, he is still trying to learn what to do in situations like this, and is flawed in his way of doing so.

Though you can’t say he wasn’t partially right as far as swords go, if it wasn’t brought along and used as it was, this raid looking for it, and the obsession with having it themselves wouldn’t be happening.

As @Swagner stated too, Thorfinn's idealistic, but he's definitely not naive. Thorfinn is definitely being challenged in more and more ways, with this final arc interrogating what the philosophy of "running away" and/or "playing on hard mode (i.e. non-lethal self-defense)" means for Thorfinn when it comes to this new community level context and setting. While Yukimura is definitely aware of how sometimes violence (and sometimes even killing) may be unavoidable, I seriously doubt Yukimura will ever frame those unavoidable conditions as condonable.

 

[Grimmycoffee]

Peace only works when both parties are of equal power or there is a need for each other. Thorfinn was trying both at the same time but failed in doing so in time, but when shit hits the fan, like it or not - the answer is violence.

They're heavily outnumbered, so no, I don't think violence would work.

Having better steel doesn't give you that big of an advantage, fort only works if the colonists have the ability (either through numbers or military experience) to exploit their victories since if they don't, they're just stuck in constant defense against unending waves of enemies, and when the situation becomes a "northerner vs natives" they're doomed.

 

[SpiritusNox]

As @Swagner stated too, Thorfinn's idealistic, but he's definitely not naive. Thorfinn is definitely being challenged in more and more ways, with this final arc interrogating what the philosophy of "running away" and/or "playing on hard mode (i.e. non-lethal self-defense)" means for Thorfinn when it comes to this new community level context and setting. While Yukimura is definitely aware of how sometimes violence (and sometimes even killing) may be unavoidable, I seriously doubt Yukimura will ever frame those unavoidable conditions as condonable.

Another point to keep in mind on the whole "idealistic but not naive" angle - keep in mind, Thorfinn's obviously disappointed and heartbroken that things have come to this, but he's never struck me as shocked by any of it. He always knew an outcome like this was possible, even as he hoped and planned against it.

 

[R4ampage]

Man I was really holding onto hope to the last second but I feel like with them having officialy struck back in such a maner the Hope of Peace is completely gone. I guess now we can just hope that as few as possible people die in this conflict.

 

[Eeliejun]

Seems it was the right idea to build the palisade. Tbh, see a lot of people saying that the sword and axe is not the same because one is for war and the other can be used as a tool but the thing is that it does not matter because other people would like to have the tools. Look at the rest of the story. No one fought just because of swords but lots of things. It feels like a bunch of you think if they did not bring a sword a war would not have happened.

I also feel you all give Thorfinn too much credit that he is not naive. The problem is that he is a leader. If he lived on his own and all it was on him but now a dude and a woman are dead for what? So Thorfinn can stick to his ideas?

The naive part is that he thought this would ever work after experiencing everything he did in his life. Conflict will come at that was his first lesson in life when his dad was killed for no big reason.

 

[MusashiKarlsefni]

As @Swagner stated too, Thorfinn's idealistic, but he's definitely not naive. Thorfinn is definitely being challenged in more and more ways, with this final arc interrogating what the philosophy of "running away" and/or "playing on hard mode (i.e. non-lethal self-defense)" means for Thorfinn when it comes to this new community level context and setting. While Yukimura is definitely aware of how sometimes violence (and sometimes even killing) may be unavoidable, I seriously doubt Yukimura will ever frame those unavoidable conditions as condonable.

You’re right, just poor phrasing on my end, but I do think theres a touch of naiveté to him. Definitely more idealistic tho.

 

[Theozilla]

Seems it was the right idea to build the palisade. Tbh, see a lot of people saying that the sword and axe is not the same because one is for war and the other can be used as a tool but the thing is that it does not matter because other people would like to have the tools. Look at the rest of the story. No one fought just because of swords but lots of things. It feels like a bunch of you think if they did not bring a sword a war would not have happened.

I also feel you all give Thorfinn too much credit that he is not naive. The problem is that he is a leader. If he lived on his own and all it was on him but now a dude and a woman are dead for what? So Thorfinn can stick to his ideas?

The naive part is that he thought this would ever work after experiencing everything he did in his life. Conflict will come at that was his first lesson in life when his dad was killed for no big reason.

No one is saying that zero conflict would have been guaranteed if swords hadn’t been brought. But to deny/minimize the significance and snowballed effect that bringing swords had (a weapon designed only for harming/killing other people) would be ignoring the text of the story. The sociological effect of a technology designed solely to make it easier to harm/kill other people does make a difference, it's why arms races exist in the first place.

Also if you’re blaming Thorfinn for the deaths of the couple that the raiders just killed, then Ivar (who also took Thorfinn’s position of leadership) deserves just as much if not more blame for their deaths, since him bringing a sword and using it, is specifically what drew these raiders in (even willing to expose themselves to risk of exposure to disease). The actions that Thorfinn took were for more than just so he could “stick to his ideals”, he didn’t and doesn’t have the answers for everything but every effort he has made has been to deescalate and minimize conflict, and he did so specifically because he not naive.

Thorfinn pursued his goal for his ideals and atonement but he was never naive about insurmountable odds he was facing. In fact one of the major themes of the story is that one should pursue peace and nonviolence not just spite of the nigh impossibility of the ideal, but because of it. Nothing can ever change or progress if people always/only just roll over and give up on ideals.

 

[Amplify]

Peace through superior firepower, or no peace at all.

 

[BambuszManus]

Finally we are going to get NTR in the story

Clearly, you do not know the meaning of NTR.

 

[BambuszManus]

All for nothing.

Native tribes are just bunch of chimpanzees.

Don't act like the rest of us aren't.