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OH YEAHHHHHHHH
We Shall Now Begin Ethics. - Vol. 4 Ch. 20 - Necktie and Me
- Thread starter MangaDex
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Fed-Kun's army
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wait, bimonthly?! noooo, I already am suffering with made in abyss and Berserk...
Also, something i like about this series is that it doesn't makes a "Problem class" but rather a "class with problems". It's not like everyone in the class is there because they have homes with physical abuse, or they have suicidal thoughts, or are being bullied daily, some of them just end up having problems as they developed due to stress, anxiety or boredom much like real people would do. Of course, there are those whose situations are indeed outliers like the guy with the addict brother or the boy that got too attached to takayanagi but the manga never brings these problems up so often that it makes you feel overbeared, like if them having these problems was all the characters were; they are part of them, but not the whole that makes them.
Even here, we are seeing a form of abuse in this boy's father but it doesnt feels unnatural. the father who ignores his family over his work but is never really hitting them, he just put them down likely thinking "i work my ass off, at least appreciate it and go to school properly/cook something for me". He is not really trying to hurt the kid nor the wife, for all we know he really loves them a lot but he is ignorant over the toll his decisions and his words are taking on his family who feel like he doesn't cares about them, possibly because that's how he himself was raised and "he turned out fine, so why is his son having problems when he didn't?".
As always, thanks for the chapter.
Also, something i like about this series is that it doesn't makes a "Problem class" but rather a "class with problems". It's not like everyone in the class is there because they have homes with physical abuse, or they have suicidal thoughts, or are being bullied daily, some of them just end up having problems as they developed due to stress, anxiety or boredom much like real people would do. Of course, there are those whose situations are indeed outliers like the guy with the addict brother or the boy that got too attached to takayanagi but the manga never brings these problems up so often that it makes you feel overbeared, like if them having these problems was all the characters were; they are part of them, but not the whole that makes them.
Even here, we are seeing a form of abuse in this boy's father but it doesnt feels unnatural. the father who ignores his family over his work but is never really hitting them, he just put them down likely thinking "i work my ass off, at least appreciate it and go to school properly/cook something for me". He is not really trying to hurt the kid nor the wife, for all we know he really loves them a lot but he is ignorant over the toll his decisions and his words are taking on his family who feel like he doesn't cares about them, possibly because that's how he himself was raised and "he turned out fine, so why is his son having problems when he didn't?".
As always, thanks for the chapter.
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Gender non-conforming LGBTQ+ people! This manga is seriously so amazing coming from a conservative country!! I'm glad it exists!
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@Tensaitkuroneko Like a yankee doing good things, every 'modern' thing that comes from Japan is doubly as impressive. I'm really glad to see this manga keeping its quality for so long!
@Goldreaver @Tensaitkuroneko
Given how the west who wholeheartedly adopted that shit is looking, that is not a thing to celebrate. LGBTQXYZBBQ has done more harm than good to be quite frank.
Given how the west who wholeheartedly adopted that shit is looking, that is not a thing to celebrate. LGBTQXYZBBQ has done more harm than good to be quite frank.
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@Rheeve please, elaborate on how the "West" is looking after having "wholeheartedly adopted that shit" and how a civil rights movement such as the LGBTQ+ has "done more harm than good".
We are in the comment section of a manga where people debate about ethics and discuss their opinions while reasoning with others, I think it is only appropriate for you to present your point in more detail and add motivations to your claim.
We are in the comment section of a manga where people debate about ethics and discuss their opinions while reasoning with others, I think it is only appropriate for you to present your point in more detail and add motivations to your claim.
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Wow. Nice reply. You really know how to effectively present your points and how to respectfully debate with others.
To answer your question (you know, as is just polite to do), I was doing my own business previously, I have no idea what comments were written in other chapters, I do take discussions seriously (otherwise, why bother at all?), and I only noticed your comment because it was the most recent one; this is why I replied to it and asked you to elaborate on your statement.
However, the fact that your reply was "where were you before?" "Are you salty", "Is this a super serious comment section now" (a most likely unconscious attempt to shift the focus from your statement), instead of giving supporting evidence to your claim, tells me that you don't really have any basis for saying what you said.
I thought you'd welcome the chance to have an honest and serious debate, where you present your point with supporting evidence, and politely discuss them with strangers with different points of view.
However, since you do not seem willing, and I have better things to do than pointlessly argue on the web (as I said before, if you do not take a discussion seriously, why bother?), I wish you a nice day.
To answer your question (you know, as is just polite to do), I was doing my own business previously, I have no idea what comments were written in other chapters, I do take discussions seriously (otherwise, why bother at all?), and I only noticed your comment because it was the most recent one; this is why I replied to it and asked you to elaborate on your statement.
However, the fact that your reply was "where were you before?" "Are you salty", "Is this a super serious comment section now" (a most likely unconscious attempt to shift the focus from your statement), instead of giving supporting evidence to your claim, tells me that you don't really have any basis for saying what you said.
I thought you'd welcome the chance to have an honest and serious debate, where you present your point with supporting evidence, and politely discuss them with strangers with different points of view.
However, since you do not seem willing, and I have better things to do than pointlessly argue on the web (as I said before, if you do not take a discussion seriously, why bother?), I wish you a nice day.
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PLease more, i'm begging you T-T
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And just like that new rooster, man... ok i will assume that everything turned out well for the old class, they got their shit together, but frankly i think the one that had the horrible personality didn't learnt shit and is out there being a bitch.
So any gender studies educated people in the comments that could explain me if, the non-bynary-transfemenine character who identifies as genderqueer because of a complex with their father, is an accurate and fair description of non cisgender gender identity?
Isn't there the underlying assumption that he wouldn't be genderqueer if he didn't had a complex with their father? or is the presentation fine as it is now?
So any gender studies educated people in the comments that could explain me if, the non-bynary-transfemenine character who identifies as genderqueer because of a complex with their father, is an accurate and fair description of non cisgender gender identity?
Isn't there the underlying assumption that he wouldn't be genderqueer if he didn't had a complex with their father? or is the presentation fine as it is now?
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NEW SEMESTER, WOHOOOO
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@Doomroar
to just answer your question, i think its ok. its a little simple, but its not like its a manga about LGBT identities now suddenly. i would bet a lot of irl trans people feels the same as the character here
and its important to remember that any kind of identity you form can and is dependent on BOTH biological and environment factors. so if you're a cis guy who likes sports, there's the biological factor that you were, well, born as male, so your body is stronger and more suited for that hobby, which could argue that you wee naturally drawn to it. but there's the core, social environmental factor that men are expected to like and do sports - which was, in turn, created because of that initial biological factor. so it's complicated
if we didnt have stuff like gender norms in the first place - if no one was judged or stereotyped at all according to their genitals - then no trans people would feel dysphoria and thus have the need to transition. (in theory at least, i of course don't speak for all of them.) but in that world, no one would be cis either! not exactly as how we define it now anyway, because we made up "cis" and "trans" to accommodate *around* these roles. people would just live as whoever they wanna be. so thought exercises like "if x or y factor wasn't a thing, then they wouldn't be trans" is a fruitless exercise. you can argue the very cultural notion that ties are masculine is also a factor here (something sensei goes into a little bit), which is something that cant be changed as easily as a single bad father. there is never one single environmental factor that can be poofed out to fix everything
another important thing to note is that certain people, like "transmedicalists" (people who wrongly think dysphoria and a proper doctoral diagnosis is a prerequisite if you wish to identify as transgender) will often heavily emphasize the biological factors of forming identity, even going as far as to say there are certain differences in "male and female brains". (granted, there have been legitimate studies about this. it just sounds silly, almost as silly as what incels say about the "male skull") these beliefs can be extremely dangerous, and can easily turn into harmful gatekeeping
so yeah. very complicated subject. but the manga didnt really downplay or make fun of it, nor did it explore it in depth - probably cause this character will be a major character in upcoming chapters
to just answer your question, i think its ok. its a little simple, but its not like its a manga about LGBT identities now suddenly. i would bet a lot of irl trans people feels the same as the character here
and its important to remember that any kind of identity you form can and is dependent on BOTH biological and environment factors. so if you're a cis guy who likes sports, there's the biological factor that you were, well, born as male, so your body is stronger and more suited for that hobby, which could argue that you wee naturally drawn to it. but there's the core, social environmental factor that men are expected to like and do sports - which was, in turn, created because of that initial biological factor. so it's complicated
if we didnt have stuff like gender norms in the first place - if no one was judged or stereotyped at all according to their genitals - then no trans people would feel dysphoria and thus have the need to transition. (in theory at least, i of course don't speak for all of them.) but in that world, no one would be cis either! not exactly as how we define it now anyway, because we made up "cis" and "trans" to accommodate *around* these roles. people would just live as whoever they wanna be. so thought exercises like "if x or y factor wasn't a thing, then they wouldn't be trans" is a fruitless exercise. you can argue the very cultural notion that ties are masculine is also a factor here (something sensei goes into a little bit), which is something that cant be changed as easily as a single bad father. there is never one single environmental factor that can be poofed out to fix everything
another important thing to note is that certain people, like "transmedicalists" (people who wrongly think dysphoria and a proper doctoral diagnosis is a prerequisite if you wish to identify as transgender) will often heavily emphasize the biological factors of forming identity, even going as far as to say there are certain differences in "male and female brains". (granted, there have been legitimate studies about this. it just sounds silly, almost as silly as what incels say about the "male skull") these beliefs can be extremely dangerous, and can easily turn into harmful gatekeeping
so yeah. very complicated subject. but the manga didnt really downplay or make fun of it, nor did it explore it in depth - probably cause this character will be a major character in upcoming chapters
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@Doomroar
Edit: I just realized that @JohnJRenns made a better take than mine on the subject, but I'll leave this here just in case someone's interested.
You should repost this on Reddit as well, so we can have a proper discusion without this weird tagging system.
Now, I haven't taking any electives in gender studies, but as far as I can risk, the general conception is that people are born Queer. I did take a course in Contemporary Philosophy though.
(From this point on, I'm sorry if I mess up my reasoning or if I offend anyone with what I'm about to say. I'm still pretty ignorant, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
For these thinkers the only constant in life is change, and change is the essence that defines every human being(Even if you change you are indeed you)
But change doesn't come from nowhere. It comes from our experiences, stuff like where we were born, who are our parents and friends etc. Essentially, our past.
Past is made on facts and even if it may not define who we are, it certainly tells something about who we were. Humans also use that knowledge as a basis to set who they aspire to be (Future).
And all of this stuff I said right now to boost my gigantic ego, were also to serve as an argument for the hipothesis of this comment: Even if one's born queer, the reasons you'll end up identifying as one will vary from person to person. The struggles too. In this case, the kid is queer but the father was the catalyst that initiated the process of self-doubt, rejection and reconstruction.
Disclaimer: That thing about having gigantic ego... Is a joke. I'm not that confident tbh but I like to put my knowledge to use. Oh, and forgive any grammar mistakes as this is my second language.
Edit: I just realized that @JohnJRenns made a better take than mine on the subject, but I'll leave this here just in case someone's interested.
You should repost this on Reddit as well, so we can have a proper discusion without this weird tagging system.
Now, I haven't taking any electives in gender studies, but as far as I can risk, the general conception is that people are born Queer. I did take a course in Contemporary Philosophy though.
(From this point on, I'm sorry if I mess up my reasoning or if I offend anyone with what I'm about to say. I'm still pretty ignorant, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)
For these thinkers the only constant in life is change, and change is the essence that defines every human being(Even if you change you are indeed you)
But change doesn't come from nowhere. It comes from our experiences, stuff like where we were born, who are our parents and friends etc. Essentially, our past.
Past is made on facts and even if it may not define who we are, it certainly tells something about who we were. Humans also use that knowledge as a basis to set who they aspire to be (Future).
And all of this stuff I said right now to boost my gigantic ego, were also to serve as an argument for the hipothesis of this comment: Even if one's born queer, the reasons you'll end up identifying as one will vary from person to person. The struggles too. In this case, the kid is queer but the father was the catalyst that initiated the process of self-doubt, rejection and reconstruction.
Disclaimer: That thing about having gigantic ego... Is a joke. I'm not that confident tbh but I like to put my knowledge to use. Oh, and forgive any grammar mistakes as this is my second language.
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West is not the epitome of civilization. Coming from a relatively conservative country myself, I know how significant efforts are to our day to day life... to include LGBTQ+ people.
And people who have no idea about the challenges we face in our daily life like belittling us and our community when we have done nothing to harm anyone - we've only asked for no discrimination and being allowed to live as we want. If that's what ruins your civilization, then it didn't deserve to exist in the first place.
That's all.
And people who have no idea about the challenges we face in our daily life like belittling us and our community when we have done nothing to harm anyone - we've only asked for no discrimination and being allowed to live as we want. If that's what ruins your civilization, then it didn't deserve to exist in the first place.
That's all.
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