Isekai Craft Gurashi ~Jiyuu Kimama na Seisan Shoku no Honobono Slow Life~ - Ch. 34

[xEternalSoul]

I thought we won't reach common agreement on the matter, yet I'm still surprised by how sudden you left. That's fine, I don't think leaving an argument is a bad thing or yielding.

That said, I'm still entitled to defend my position.

You just misread me. I don't care about what they think of the character. What justify insults for me is in how they arrived at their conclusion. If they just hate his guts, or found him annoyingly demanding, that's fine by me. But saying he is unreasonable when I found nothing of sorts is either making me doubt myself, or attack the concept of reasoning itself. And I would apply this everywhere, in praise or in hate, in fiction or reality discussion.

I think you won't accept this anymore. It seems to me that you're in the camp of no insulting except when insulted, which is an admirable position in itself.

I just don't see the need to prolong unnecessary arguments since its very likely to just lead to unhappy people and hostilities. I appreciate that you at least took the time to properly answered me and state your flow of thoughts, although we weren't able to come to an agreement, respects to you

 

[jvlg]

about fifty talented production workers getting juiced like key limes

"Greetings, oh heroes summoned from Another World! I am the Princess of this kingdom! Will you please help us in this time of crisis by using your great powers to drive our subway system?"

Introducing, project überbarrel:

 

[DanYHKim]

Yes, but do remember he doesn't own any of the lands that will be excavating when he makes it for himself. It's like creating a cave system in government property.

Weeeeelll, maybe. It depends on how the law considers ownership of land. When air mail was introduced, a farmer sued the postal service because the airplanes were trespassing over his land. I cannot remember how it turned out, but the case showed that the limits of ownership of land needed to be defined in the law. In a previous comment I made, I figured that there will need to be some law saying that land is conventionally owned by an individual or business entity from the surface up to the height of the royal palace and down to the depth of a sub basement. Mineral claims that are deeper must be worked out as if the rest of the ground is under the King's domain, or something. I am sure that modern countries have a body of law worked out on this.

 

[Loliphilosophy]

Baste

 

[KiraEllion]

Oh sure, 50 years profit, how nice. You think the economy will pace itself at the 25 year mark and slowly wind down back to the pre-Miyabi normal?
No.

The moment the Miyabi train breaks down the economy will crash smack first against a wall. How many people in 50 years do you figure will have built their livelihoods around that train's existence? What will they do now, unemployed and incapable of finding a job in an economy struggling to return to pre-Miyabi "normal"?
This isn't a callous noble or trader out for prestige or a quick buck, he's actually looking out for his territory and there's plenty at stake.

Consider this: Where are you pulling that 4 year time from? Because unlike us readers he can't afford to pull it out his ass. He needs to know

1. What the required skillset will be. This is part of the prototype and design process.
2. What will it take to train someone to that level from near-scratch (let alone an entire workforce capable of training future generations!)

The entire point of asking Miyabi to compromise towards a design (and associated skillset!) that Karon can build is to clear up these unknowns. People keep saying Karon represents the average craftman, and they're wrong:
It represents a benchmark for exactly how far and how fast an average craftman training under Miyabi's guidance can come along. A benchmark Duke Beldini has had ample opportunity to keep a close eye on thanks to the greenhouse project.

Completly ignoring the rest of my point because it's too hard to argue good job mr strawman.

New Jobs will be made to maintain the train people will improve upon it people will replace it almost like we have over 2025 years of human advancement to prove such

You think TV's started out 32' inch plasma widescreens with netflix? because i guarantee you they did not as a rule of thumb advancements take only 10 years or so to happen and that's assuming no factors speed up that time.

in fact here's an easy improvement to make because Miyabi is an idiot and so is everyone else. Shrink the Train but make two. Same capacity would require much less magic to push the thing or to use the brakes.

 

[FANNYMAN231]

Completly ignoring the rest of my point because it's too hard to argue good job mr strawman.

New Jobs will be made to maintain the train people will improve upon it people will replace it almost like we have over 2025 years of human advancement to prove such

You think TV's started out 32' inch plasma widescreens with netflix? because i guarantee you they did not as a rule of thumb advancements take only 10 years or so to happen and that's assuming no factors speed up that time.

in fact here's an easy improvement to make because Miyabi is an idiot and so is everyone else. Shrink the Train but make two. Same capacity would require much less magic to push the thing or to use the brakes.

Those examples you made are still made by people with more or less have the same capacity that are their peers.

A better example would be like if you bring a current computer and tell people from the 1800's to maintain the computer. They don't have the necessary components to maintain it, much like how Miyabi has a shit ton of power that can't be compared to his peers.

That's the reason why Karon was selected as the main developer from now on, so that they can maintain it and replace it, and not base it off of Miyabi's screwed own sense of power.

 

[NamaeX]

Reading the raw, I just realized why people keep assuming Karen is a boy. It's because Karen was using "boku" which is used by boys instead of "watashi" which is more neutral when referring to herself.

 

[KiraEllion]

Those examples you made are still made by people with more or less have the same capacity that are their peers.

A better example would be like if you bring a current computer and tell people from the 1800's to maintain the computer. They don't have the necessary components to maintain it, much like how Miyabi has a shit ton of power that can't be compared to his peers.

That's the reason why Karon was selected as the main developer from now on, so that they can maintain it and replace it, and not base it off of Miyabi's screwed own sense of power.

you dont need the exact same parts. and again with 50 PLUS years of study understanding it will be trivial. again 10 years is the ballpark however since they are studying a physical object research and study will proceed much faster.
replicating it on a smaller level with worse parts defined American innovation for years.

 

[katkamisama]

Frigging called it bro, it just made sense to push air forward like airplanes Now while what the duke's saying is understandable, to be done by the kid alone is absurd.

 

[jvlg]

Completly ignoring the rest of my point because it's too hard to argue good job mr strawman.

New Jobs will be made to maintain the train people will improve upon it people will replace it almost like we have over 2025 years of human advancement to prove such

You think TV's started out 32' inch plasma widescreens with netflix? because i guarantee you they did not as a rule of thumb advancements take only 10 years or so to happen and that's assuming no factors speed up that time.

in fact here's an easy improvement to make because Miyabi is an idiot and so is everyone else. Shrink the Train but make two. Same capacity would require much less magic to push the thing or to use the brakes.

From what I understand, your main claim was that Beldini should know the issue is solvable in 4-10 years.
And (as a secondary claim not worth retreading) that even if it wasn't solvable in that time, he should somehow be happy to get 10 years' profit.

So unless I've missed something, let's get back to the main point here:

We are not talking about whether the issue is solvable or not, but whether Beldini knows.​

At the time, I asked you where you were pulling your 4-10 year estimate from, and how exactly should Beldini be able to come to the same conclusion.
This isn't Earth, this isn't a matter of technological progress, but a world of classes and magic and the progress of the crafter class and associated skills in particular.

We, as readers, do not know enough to assume the two will be comparable and will both hold to this same 10 year rule of thumb. In fact the story so far has tried to give us the vague impression that developing your skills as a crafter is hard, and since there's little incentive to do so things may have plateau'd as a result, such that in this world Miyabi can be some grand exception.

Beldini, as a character in universe, cannot draw from Earth as a frame of reference.
All he's got is extensive experience commissioning architectural projects from crafters over the years, and seeing how they fare. In fact, I trust he knows better than us how much progress (or lack thereof) crafting has seen over time.

It should be clear from his request that he does not expect crafters to reach Miyabi's best in 50 years. Not at the current pace.
If there are any specialists at all, it is clear they not common enough an asset that Beldini thinks he'll be able to reliably acquire enough off for it to be a feasible solution.

So:
Unless he asks Miyabi to hold back, Beldini does not know, can not know, nor even guess as to whether it'll even be possible to have new jobs to maintain, improve upon or replace Miyabi's train at all in the first place.
And the only guarantee Miyabi will really have held back enough is to get someone else to do the crafting and force him to design around such a limitation.

Sure, we as readers know Karon will pull through, and all crafters will catch up to train-making levels in 6 month's time and everyone on the bus will stand up and clap because that's how these stories go and how we expect things to turn out. But Beldini is a character, not a reader, and so he acts with the limited knowledge he has and is perfectly justified in being the "asshole" that must put his foot down and request that Miyabi pulls his head out of the clouds.

And onto your latest point, that there may be easy improvements to be had?
It is irrelevant: Beldini has little to engineering background and is learning about trains for the first time. He won't be coming up with such improvements nor can he blindly hope there'll be such improvements in the first place. Nor is it his responsibility to think up of those - It is that of those who claim the project is feasible.

 

[KiraEllion]

From what I understand, your main claim was that Beldini should know the issue is solvable in 4-10 years.
And (as a secondary claim not worth retreading) that even if it wasn't solvable in that time, he should somehow be happy to get 10 years' profit.

So unless I've missed something, let's get back to the main point here:

We are not talking about whether the issue is solvable or not, but whether Beldini knows.​

At the time, I asked you where you were pulling your 4-10 year estimate from, and how exactly should Beldini be able to come to the same conclusion.
This isn't Earth, this isn't a matter of technological progress, but a world of classes and magic and the progress of the crafter class and associated skills in particular.

We, as readers, do not know enough to assume the two will be comparable and will both hold to this same 10 year rule of thumb. In fact the story so far has tried to give us the vague impression that developing your skills as a crafter is hard, and since there's little incentive to do so things may have plateau'd as a result, such that in this world Miyabi can be some grand exception.

Beldini, as a character in universe, cannot draw from Earth as a frame of reference.
All he's got is extensive experience commissioning architectural projects from crafters over the years, and seeing how they fare. In fact, I trust he knows better than us how much progress (or lack thereof) crafting has seen over time.

It should be clear from his request that he does not expect crafters to reach Miyabi's best in 50 years. Not at the current pace.
If there are any specialists at all, it is clear they not common enough an asset that Beldini thinks he'll be able to reliably acquire enough off for it to be a feasible solution.

So:
Unless he asks Miyabi to hold back, Beldini does not know, can not know, nor even guess as to whether it'll even be possible to have new jobs to maintain, improve upon or replace Miyabi's train at all in the first place.
And the only guarantee Miyabi will really have held back enough is to get someone else to do the crafting and force him to design around such a limitation.

Sure, we as readers know Karon will pull through, and all crafters will catch up to train-making levels in 6 month's time and everyone on the bus will stand up and clap because that's how these stories go and how we expect things to turn out. But Beldini is a character, not a reader, and so he acts with the limited knowledge he has and is perfectly justified in being the "asshole" that must put his foot down and request that Miyabi pulls his head out of the clouds.

And onto your latest point, that there may be easy improvements to be had?
It is irrelevant: Beldini has little to engineering background and is learning about trains for the first time. He won't be coming up with such improvements nor can he blindly hope there'll be such improvements in the first place. Nor is it his responsibility to think up of those - It is that of those who claim the project is feasible.

I'm really glad you can continue to not comprehend text.

 

[NamaeX]

So anyone got any guesses as to the results? Will the engine car or its mechanism change to work with people with smaller amounts of mana? Will Miyabi’s training of Karen and Cid result in larger mana reserves which come in clutch for this project?

 

[aaklid]

Of all unreasonable comments so far, this one scared me the most. It make me questioning the manner people these day expected from other. We didn't become too entitled, right?

Let keep it completely logical onwards, since I'm afraid this might blown up badly otherwise.

In my honest opinion, the duke do nothing rude towards Miyabi since the page 37, when they disembarked. In fact, I think, from that point onwards until when he pointed to Karon, everything the duke said was explicitly supported with reasons. Without any sarcasms or arrogance. It's on the level of elaboration I expected from court decision. Assigning Karon might looked demanding, but not without reason.

You may disagree with his reasoning and argue logically upon them. But I cannot see the rudeness you mentioned, nor what make him unreasonable.

You're allowed your opinion, just as I'm allowed mine. The fact of the matter is, if my employer talked down to me like that, and I had the ability to tell them to get bent? I'd be gone. And I don't think that's uncommon, nor nearly as unreasonable as you seem to think it is.

 

[aaklid]

Hell, I myself made an argument several, several chapters ago that Miyabi could be a logistics division and sapper corp all by himself thanks to how his abilities work. I wouldn't be surprised if the prince ended up being known by some epithet like "The Instant Fortress" or "The Castling King" or some such after Miyabi's teaching.

The Duke KNOWS he can just plop fully formed and furnished buildings anywhere he pleases, nearly invalidate an entire team of miners, throw together intricately enchanted items, and generally just be a force multiplier... and as we saw with Karon, he's keeping an eye on how far a crafter under his tutelage can go. The fact he's even suggesting putting Karon in charge is probably a positive hint to how he feels about the matter... after all, he just watched her create MULTIPLE greenhouses for him, to his specification, during the time Miyabi has been away (approximately 6 to 8 weeks at this point iirc).

Duke is playing the long game on multiple fronts and people are getting mad he's apparently planned it out. The deadline actually makes sense since the Prince is getting shipped out their way too. He needs the work at a stage that the concept phase is out of the way and practical work is ready to begin... because if his future son-in-law is linked to a project that will fundamentally change the kingdom for the better....

Yeah, that's really nice for the duke and all, works out great for him. Except he's not explaining any of this to Miyabi, he's just dumping new conditions on him, pointing out all the flaws and ignoring any successes. His whole plan goes up in smoke if Miyabi gets upset and gives upm or decides to do his own thing.

 

[aaklid]

He's got no chance against the duke because he's constantly under the duke's watch. This is a world of magic and supernatural feat. MC's strength lies mostly on logistics/support, unless he's carefully planning a coup, which wouldn't go unnoticed, there's no stopping the duke from using military force to capture/straight up "disappear" the guy.

Sure, he can affect the world power dynamic in major way, if he's allowed the freedom to act. Now would he be though?

I mean, if he really wanted to and was that kind of guy, he could probably tunnel out under the Duke's mansion and collapse it, injuring/killing everyone inside. Now, obviously he's not that kind of guy, but you're acting like there's nothing he can do at all. Miyabi represents a frankly insane windfall for the duke, his family and his territory. There's literally no reason to piss him off and every reason to be as reasonable and agreeable with him as possible, not acting like a hardass.

Yes, the duke is a noble. Yes, he can choose to be an ass and waive his dick around if he wants. But it doesn't help him at all.

 

[aaklid]

I admit that in all of these chapter, he appears to be a cold, pragmatic aristocrat who prioritize meritocracy above all. But I didn't find him being rude at all. All that he did was explained reasonably. His rejection of design or asking for proof as a paying customer are in his right. His role as a governing duke means boundaries, internal intelligence, fiscal discipline and stakeholders inputs are parts of his official duty. And we're quite lucky to have reasons clearly explained in almost all actions.

Asshole is a subjective definition, which could be varied from person to person. But imo, using his legitimate reasons to reject or demand from mc is not necessary an act of an asshole. If I may borrow your wording, being dislikable and being an asshole isn't mutually exclusive.

What paying customer? You mean the duke's vague assertion that, if Miyabi succeeds, his work will be worth huge amounts of money? Which is both extremely vague, easy to walk back, and something Miyabi himself stated as meaningless? Why should Miyabi care about that? It's not like Miyabi came to the duke for work, the duke made himself Miyabi's customer, only to impose a bunch of restrictions on him and act like a dick about it.

This entire project, everything about it will benefit the duke immensely. He has everything to gain from cooperating, yet he's being a hardass about things. Like, this sort of revolutionary project is the kind of thing that would get you made nobility in the real world. You'd be married into the duke's house to a second or third daughter, or a cousin, or something. It would be damn near a blank check for whatever you wanted, and Miyabi's being extremely accommodating.

 

[Jiel]

I mean, if he really wanted to and was that kind of guy, he could probably tunnel out under the Duke's mansion and collapse it, injuring/killing everyone inside. Now, obviously he's not that kind of guy, but you're acting like there's nothing he can do at all. Miyabi represents a frankly insane windfall for the duke, his family and his territory. There's literally no reason to piss him off and every reason to be as reasonable and agreeable with him as possible, not acting like a hardass.

Yes, the duke is a noble. Yes, he can choose to be an ass and waive his dick around if he wants. But it doesn't help him at all.

Yeah no, rather than not being that kind of guy, dude brain just ain't wired for that kind of scheming work. And on the topic of what he could hypothetically have done, he could have also manufactured something like guns/explosive and taken out the duke point blank.

Oh do we want something more discreet now? For the tunnel plan, he would have to start from outside the territory, because let's face it the duke would be dumb to not have eyes on him at all time inside his city/land. But he would run the risk of the duke just not being inside his mansion, and if he failed his one chance then whoops, suddenly treason. So asking around for the duke whereabouts/schedule then, oh ain't we suspicious now?

But enough of the hypothetical stuff that won't happen.

Sure the duke's got every reason to respect the MC, and he does. But he doesn't have to go along with all of the MC's whim, he's pragmatic, not dumb.

Moreover, let's look at this from another angle. Respect goes both way, if he let the MC walk all over him because he and his territory benefit from it, would the MC listen to anything he say later? By being hard on the MC now, he's establishing that he is someone the MC should listen to, not the other way around. And it worked because he knew what kinda guy the MC was.

If I was in the duke place and the MC prove "non-agreeable", I would prefer to nip it in the bud rather than force it or let it be a problem later. As they say, a tool that you cannot use is no tool at all.

 

[haurvatat23]

i know i shouldn't weigh in. lotta people having very strong Feelings in this chat. but christ alive, i don't think people paid enough attention to what Miyabi said to understand the context AT ALL

Miyabi has to recharge the train's enchantments every 24 hours. he explicitly says that's the longest he can keep an enchantment active when he's explaining his idea to Liz and Chiffon. if he makes a train only he can charge, he is signing his own ass up for endless work, and the problem is HE DOESN'T REALIZE THIS YET. he never processed that he's the only one who can supply these stones with enough magic, assuming instead that he could just build the train and then leave it up to the locals to maintain. if Beldini let the project go through without a challenge at this stage, he'd be conning Miyabi into a lifetime of servitude that this poor guy never intended. he's telling Miyabi to build his own escape hatch, and that is unquestionably a favor to him, regardless of how unreasonable an update to the contract terms it seems to be at first blush.

second off, IT'S NOT THE DUKE'S MONEY. what he's offering to invest is specifically the duchy's money, earmarked for the duchy's wellbeing and development. he's merely the manager of that money. if he squanders his taxpayers' money on an idiot vanity project that dies instantly because the one guy who could juice it up decided to pack up and leave, that's money gone that could have been used to improve safety on existing infrastructure - and remember, we just heard from another duke claiming that Angelum has way more monsters than other places, so it's more dangerous. Chiffon confirms that trade is a giant pain in the ass, and so obviously the duchy has running contracts with merchants and their bodyguards who likely rely on the extra hazard pay to make ends meet. by investing in a technology that could undermine those interest groups' business model, Beldini could very well end up burning bridges with people he needs to stay afloat, especially if the train falls through for whatever reason.

nothing Beldini said was rude or against Miyabi's best interest, and he's just being a responsible caretaker of taxpayer money. if Miyabi burns himself out trying to fulfill a contract he didn't know would be so labor-intensive, it works out worse for literally everyone, Beldini included.

note that this man ripped out his own prized gardens and replaced them with greenhouses. i think the duchy's trade issues are worse than we know about. he's sinking a lot of money into trying to make his territory self-sufficient, growing more food in colder months when the mountainous passageways are blocked off with snow. he literally cannot afford to sink cash into a dead end when he risks his people starving. if you can't wrap your mind around the scale of what he's got on his plate, you have no right to criticize him for making what is unquestionably the best decision for everyone.