Kusunoki-san wa Koukou Debut ni Shippai Shite Iru - Ch. 44.1 - Why Do I Even Like Him? (First Part)

[Qnomei]

if Shizuki doesn't reply with "Huh" on the first page, I'm dropping this (just kidding but seriously tho what?)

My best guess is he says something stupid and gets punched.

Or, he says something she really really likes, gets her all flustered again... then says something stupid and gets punched.

 

[ItsThatBriGuy]

ok so kusunoki once had a bestfriend who stop being friend with her because she reject him maybe?

I'm curious where in the timeline this could even have happened. She's had exactly one male friend since her HS glow-up, and he definitely hasn't confessed. And she was definitely not sociable enough the last couple years of middle school to have someone like that around to lose in the first place.

 

[UdenEmpati]

I'm curious where in the timeline this could even have happened. She's had exactly one male friend since her HS glow-up, and he definitely hasn't confessed. And she was definitely not sociable enough the last couple years of middle school to have someone like that around to lose in the first place.

The last time we got a flashback from Kusunoki with a boy saying "we can't be friends anymore" it was elementary school.

And given she was super bright/lively then, and then not in middle school, makes me think whatever went down, went down at the end of grade school and set her on this path.

 

[Mangamoz]

Man this series kinda makes me revive all those painful feelings of my first love again. I never felt such intense joy and intense depression afterwards like in those times. And after mulling that for years, one of the conclusions I came to was the same as otobe, I loved being in love, and living my first true love, and I would never be able to have a second first time at that.

Can't be worse than my first crush.

She was the affair partner of my sister's boyfriend, and she caused them to break up.

Last I knew of her she had become a drug junkie with 5 kids.

 

[Iratana]

I'm with the author on that one tbh. She kinda sucks. Obviously written to be an antagonist and past trauma and not much else. Guy's only reaction to her so far has been "fuck off."

That's the thing that I suppose the author doesn't understand. Despite being obviously written that way, she still leaves room for growth; not just for herself, but also the mc and Kusonoki since Hebikawa is meant to serve as their obstacle to an extent. In other words, there's so many ways Hebikawa can change and develop, which could serve to help push the story along while not drastically change the story's direction. The same can't be said for Kusonoki.

 

[chiruno09]

Please let the tomboy loli get her good ending. Don't just let her become this "losing heroine trope" personification.

 

[MadScientist666]

Can't be worse than my first crush.

She was the affair partner of my sister's boyfriend, and she caused them to break up.

Last I knew of her she had become a drug junkie with 5 kids.

Ok, that's pretty fucked up...

My first crush is now married with her long-time boyfriend of over 15 years, haha. Boring, but a lot nicer than your, well, experience.

 

[Qnomei]

That's the thing that I suppose the author doesn't understand. Despite being obviously written that way, she still leaves room for growth; not just for herself, but also the mc and Kusonoki since Hebikawa is meant to serve as their obstacle to an extent. In other words, there's so many ways Hebikawa can change and develop, which could serve to help push the story along while not drastically change the story's direction. The same can't be said for Kusonoki.

Big maybe, but I don't see how we get from here to there at all. He put up a wall and she shows no sign of change. Last we saw of her was coming up with more ways to mess with him. As of now that's a dead end. Otobe has a better chance at this point.

I feel almost the same way about the Ely-Azuma ship in Choujin X.

Spoiler: Choujin X spoilers of course

Essentially on their first meeting Azuma nearly kills her while going berserk, impales her with his arm. He grew feelings for her but after years of working together she shows exactly zero romantic interest in him. And she is better friends with Tokio even after Tokio left them for over a year. IDK, if I were her even after the apology... I'd still have in the back of my mind, "what if it happens again?"

You don't have to read that it's just me ranting about a different manga with weird romance shenanigans.

 

[medcatt]

Kusunoki was presumed to be intended to win primarily because her name was in the title, but if we go by the "First Girl wins" trope, then Hebikawa would qualify, what with her being MC's first crush, even despite the follow up crash.

Even his later "begone thot" repulsions seem not to come out of active revulsion, but more out of PTSD, especially when he has shown that he's capable of more positive interactions with her (even with acts of chivalry beyond simple charitable courtesy) when she's not actively trying to act bitchy towards him.

 

[Trobilobada]

She's so fucking small it's hilarious.

 

[SenpaiSan]

Exactly. For all we know, he might be 10 times better than the MC anyway since, you know, he doesn't have much going for him in the first place aside from being the MC.

Maybe he’s better than Shizuki but Otobe doesn’t share her classmate’s romantic feelings, so that’s the end of the story for him. No need to force her into that relationship..

I mean, with all due respect, what you guys are saying doesn’t make any sense. It doesn’t matter whether he’s better or worse than Shizuki, if she doesn’t love her classmate, she doesn’t love him. That’s just how it is

 

[SenpaiSan]

I mean he should start working on making the FMC little more interesting then. Right now she is way too shoujo heroine coded.
"i don't understand love" is the worst trait for any FMC to have because you know things will never get anywhere.

And again, that’s not taking it personally but what’s “start working on making the FMC little more interesting” ? Transforming her into a Hebizawa 2.0 ?

If Hebizawa is more popular, it’s cuz she has a much more flashy, extroverted personality compared to Kusunoki, who is softer, more ‘plain’. Hebizawa naturally leaves a stronger impression on the reader than Kusunoki. It has nothing to do with being a perfect character or having flaws.

Just like in other romances, readers often feel more attached to expressive characters than to calmer, more reserved ones. If you ran a popularity poll between Hina (expressive) and Chinatsu (quiet strength) from Blue Box among anime-only fans, Chinatsu would almost certainly lose.

So sure, the author may be surprised but the fact that some ppl or majority of ppl prefer Hebizawa is just logical. That doesn’t mean Kusunoki’s character is badly written or that she needs to change. Especially if the changes request a 180 in her personality

 

[SenpaiSan]

Please let the tomboy loli get her good ending. Don't just let her become this "losing heroine trope" personification.

She can have her good ending but I hope it won’t be in the style of ‘since MC doesn’t want my feelings, I’ll just settle for the guy who’s been chasing me from the start and whom I never really cared about’

 

[UdenEmpati]

And again, that’s not taking it personally but what’s “start working on making the FMC little more interesting” ? Transforming her into a Hebizawa 2.0 ?

If Hebizawa is more popular, it’s cuz she has a much more flashy, extroverted personality compared to Kusunoki, who is softer, more ‘plain’. Hebizawa naturally leaves a stronger impression on the reader than Kusunoki. It has nothing to do with being a perfect character or having flaws.

Just like in other romances, readers often feel more attached to expressive characters than to calmer, more reserved ones. If you ran a popularity poll between Hina (expressive) and Chinatsu (quiet strength) from Blue Box among anime-only fans, Chinatsu would almost certainly lose.

So sure, the author may be surprised but the fact that some ppl or majority of ppl prefer Hebizawa is just logical. That doesn’t mean Kusunoki’s character is badly written or that she needs to change. Especially if the changes request a 180 in her personality

Why do you present the only two choices as "Kusunoki < > Hebikawa"?

I know what would make Kusunoki instantly more interesting: have her fail for once.

She's cleared every challenge presented to her in this story thus far to a degree that's honestly exhausting, when she's supposed to be this quiet, awkward, anxious 1st Year who needed Keisuke's help from the start with her debut - only to completely surpass him and everyone else in every way whenever an academic or athletic context presents itself.

She doesn't need to become a toxic bitch of a person; she just doesn't need to be literally perfect.

And your description of Hebikawa winning the socmed poll just reworded the original assertion - all of those things you describe for Hebikawa make her the more interesting character, compared to Kusunoki (for whom your choice of qualifiers, again, proves @Rafalga 's point).

 

[kamikazejoe]

where is hebikawa?

 

[SenpaiSan]

Why do you present the only two choices as "Kusunoki < > Hebikawa"?

I know what would make Kusunoki instantly more interesting: have her fail for once.

She's cleared every challenge presented to her in this story thus far to a degree that's honestly exhausting, when she's supposed to be this quiet, awkward, anxious 1st Year who needed Keisuke's help from the start with her debut - only to completely surpass him and everyone else in every way whenever an academic or athletic context presents itself.

She doesn't need to become a toxic bitch of a person; she just doesn't need to be literally perfect.

And your description of Hebikawa winning the socmed poll just reworded the original assertion - all of those things you describe for Hebikawa make her the more interesting character, compared to Kusunoki (for whom your choice of qualifiers, again, proves @Rafalga 's point).

So, don’t make me say things I never said. That would be nice and it would keep the conversation from being skewed or derailed.

First of all, I’m not saying one is better than the other. Since you say I only presented two choices ‘Kusunoki <> Hebikawa’. If I misunderstood, my bad !
Now let’s clear this up, what I’m really explaining is why characters with strong personalities are usually more appreciated than those who are more reserved.

And how exactly would failing at something suddenly make her character more interesting? Is she suddenly going to become number 1 in the fans or your eyes, ahead of Hebikawa? Let me answer that for you, no

As for this whole ‘perfect girl’ or ‘she succeeds at everything she does’ idea, I wouldn’t call that perfection but development? Because as a reader, you know she isn’t the flawless, untouchable girl people think she is. In reality, to use your own words, she’s quiet, awkward, anxious and constantly following behind Shizuki. That’s far from perfect. The fact that she manages to achieve things, like making friends, succeeding in her theater play or becoming less dependent on Shizuki, shows she went from point A to point B. She’s a girl who faces and overcomes her fears. That’s the point of her character. How is that a bad thing? And you could say the same for Shizuki, he has his moments of doubt that he also manages to overcome. So, subjectively, I don’t see how failing at something would suddenly make her more interesting. Let’s say the author actually listened to you and made her fail, would your perception of Kusunoki really change? (I don’t think so). Like Hebikawa must have failed a lot, to make her character favorite in polls . Let’s just pretend it’s not her strong personality that makes her popular and not ‘boring’ like a certain FMC…

Whats brings us back to the point of my previous post: if Hebikawa is more appreciated than Kusunoki, it’s because audiences tend to prefer strong, vibrant personalities over quiet, calm and reserved ones like Kusunoki’s.

Anyway, if Kusunoki bothers you that much, maybe it’s better to follow another romance. Even if she fails at something, chances are she’ll still overcome it in the end, so it’s basically the same. The author won’t make her permanently fail at a goal

 

[Heika]

I really liked this manga in the beginning, and I don't hate it now, but it has been really fucking grinding its wheels in place for like a year or more.

 

[UdenEmpati]

So, don’t make me say things I never said. That would be nice and it would keep the conversation from being skewed or derailed.

First of all, I’m not saying one is better than the other. Since you say I only presented two choices ‘Kusunoki <> Hebikawa’. If I misunderstood, my bad !
Now let’s clear this up, what I’m really explaining is why characters with strong personalities are usually more appreciated than those who are more reserved.

And how exactly would failing at something suddenly make her character more interesting? Is she suddenly going to become number 1 in the fans or your eyes, ahead of Hebikawa? Let me answer that for you, no

As for this whole ‘perfect girl’ or ‘she succeeds at everything she does’ idea, I wouldn’t call that perfection but development? Because as a reader, you know she isn’t the flawless, untouchable girl people think she is. In reality, to use your own words, she’s quiet, awkward, anxious and constantly following behind Shizuki. That’s far from perfect. The fact that she manages to achieve things, like making friends, succeeding in her theater play or becoming less dependent on Shizuki, shows she went from point A to point B. She’s a girl who faces and overcomes her fears. That’s the point of her character. How is that a bad thing? And you could say the same for Shizuki, he has his moments of doubt that he also manages to overcome. So, subjectively, I don’t see how failing at something would suddenly make her more interesting. Let’s say the author actually listened to you and made her fail, would your perception of Kusunoki really change? (I don’t think so). Like Hebikawa must have failed a lot, to make her character favorite in polls . Let’s just pretend it’s not her strong personality that makes her popular and not ‘boring’ like a certain FMC…

Whats brings us back to the point of my previous post: if Hebikawa is more appreciated than Kusunoki, it’s because audiences tend to prefer strong, vibrant personalities over quiet, calm and reserved ones like Kusunoki’s.

Anyway, if Kusunoki bothers you that much, maybe it’s better to follow another romance. Even if she fails at something, chances are she’ll still overcome it in the end, so it’s basically the same. The author won’t make her permanently fail at a goal

A well-rounded character would not see themself succeed at every challenge presented before them, much less to such spectacular extents as Kusunoki achieves in every example found in the manga to this point.

She never actually stumbles; sure, she's hesitant and anxious beforehand, but the moment she steps up to the plate, she surpasses everyone around her, even with equivalent effort put in by the others.

After awhile, that gets boring. She never gets second place, she never actually stumbles or falls in the actual act, and I suppose until we get her backstory, it begs the question how someone with such latent talent ended up in need of a "debut" in the first place - because most people would assume you'd not score a perfect grade on a test at least once, or not surpass every other person in athletic ability, and then end up like she has still where she has to couch every sentence with "oh but please pardon me if I'm intruding in your space".

It very much reads as humble-bragging, that combination of ability and apparent modesty in the face of it. Sure, no one seems to call her on it in the manga itself, but that's because all the characters are too busy fawning over her to do so.

And to reiterate -my position is that Hebikawa is more interesting of a character than Kusunoki, in the broad sense of their characterization within the manga. That manifests in different ways for different people, including the descriptors you've provided twice.
But in essence, because Hebikawa range to her character in terms of her flaws and imperfections, and her potential trajectory of growth within the manga because she can fail at things, she reads as more dynamic and thus, I posit, the more narratively interesting and characterized of the group.

To your last remark - I enjoy most aspects of the manga, and simply find the title character tragically underwritten compared to the others at present because she's effectively ended her character arc in achieving her Debut, while the others are all still working their way through the narrative. Kusunoki's outpaced them all and left them behind in the plot, and with her aggressive denial of romance in a romcom, I get the sense she's out of place within the story at this point, and now has to be written back into the narrative by force because of it - and I wonder if that risks turning other characters into props in an effort to facilitate Kusunoki not simply drifting out of the narrative altogether.

I'll leave it at that, though. I've reiterated these points multiple times before without ever gaining a truly meaningful dialogue from it in terms of coming away with something substantive, and so I will simply say "good day" and leave us both to our thoughts from here.

 

[SenpaiSan]

A well-rounded character would not see themself succeed at every challenge presented before them, much less to such spectacular extents as Kusunoki achieves in every example found in the manga to this point.

She never actually stumbles; sure, she's hesitant and anxious beforehand, but the moment she steps up to the plate, she surpasses everyone around her, even with equivalent effort put in by the others.

After awhile, that gets boring. She never gets second place, she never actually stumbles or falls in the actual act, and I suppose until we get her backstory, it begs the question how someone with such latent talent ended up in need of a "debut" in the first place - because most people would assume you'd not score a perfect grade on a test at least once, or not surpass every other person in athletic ability, and then end up like she has still where she has to couch every sentence with "oh but please pardon me if I'm intruding in your space".

It very much reads as humble-bragging, that combination of ability and apparent modesty in the face of it. Sure, no one seems to call her on it in the manga itself, but that's because all the characters are too busy fawning over her to do so.

And to reiterate -my position is that Hebikawa is more interesting of a character than Kusunoki, in the broad sense of their characterization within the manga. That manifests in different ways for different people, including the descriptors you've provided twice.
But in essence, because Hebikawa range to her character in terms of her flaws and imperfections, and her potential trajectory of growth within the manga because she can fail at things, she reads as more dynamic and thus, I posit, the more narratively interesting and characterized of the group.

To your last remark - I enjoy most aspects of the manga, and simply find the title character tragically underwritten compared to the others at present because she's effectively ended her character arc in achieving her Debut, while the others are all still working their way through the narrative. Kusunoki's outpaced them all and left them behind in the plot, and with her aggressive denial of romance in a romcom, I get the sense she's out of place within the story at this point, and now has to be written back into the narrative by force because of it - and I wonder if that risks turning other characters into props in an effort to facilitate Kusunoki not simply drifting out of the narrative altogether.

I'll leave it at that, though. I've reiterated these points multiple times before without ever gaining a truly meaningful dialogue from it in terms of coming away with something substantive, and so I will simply say "good day" and leave us both to our thoughts from here.

It would actually be more interesting to explain Hebikawa’s flaws and imperfections. Because I might be wrong, and that’s human, but so far she doesn’t really have any flaws or imperfections, and she doesn’t fail either.

Cuz yeah, ‘she’s mean’, ‘she’s a snake 🐍’ That’s not flaws.. that’s just her role as the antagonist opposing the FMC.

Anyway, yeah, it’s better to just leave it at a ‘have a nice day

 

[Skater901]

I'm glad Otobe has had the realisation of "wait I like him for really flimsy reasons", but I don't understand why she's letting him decide if she dates the guy who confessed to her. What's the logic there?