Maou no Ore ga Dorei Elf wo Yome ni Shitanda ga, Dou Medereba ii? - Vol. 4 Ch. 20 - I Don't Want to Get Involved With a Holy Knight's Circumstances (…

[littleoni]

@Bunnybell @BloodySorcerer

Spoiler

Well I think the problem with Arifureta resides in the writter being plain bad at his job. The characters don't evolve, they just change in a random direction. And that's what happens with the girls too: they behave like they should, maybe they develop feelings for Hajime (which they shouldn't, since he doesn't do anything worthy of it most of the time. There is some room for infatuation or suspension bridge effect, and it does make sense for them to develop respect long term, but not romantic feelings. But whatever). And then they just change to behave like a token. And then, due to the girls behaving like tokens? Hajime just changes too. 6 volumes into the thing the main story is as boring as it gets and the only good parts are the ones that don't involve the MC at all (the pope's side story, demon realm, the lives of the rest of the students, etc). And don't get me started on the completely repetitive and pointless fighting sequences where you just get reminded every 11 words that either side is not like the rest.
About Yue, I disagree with her arc being rushed. She didn't have an arc as such, her introduction was a way to "stabilize" Hajime's character and as such her own story is meaningless at that point. The author actually did something right in that part: she might aswell be an homunculus created the moment Hajime enters the room with no memories prior, her function would still be the same from the narrative's point of view. Let's just ignore the fact that she doesn't serve that purpose pretty much at all if we analyze Hajime's future behaviour (if whe skip the meting with Shea, every decision Hajime makes would be the same based only on the character's premises). I don't think Yue alone is the problem, it's the shallowness of every character: Yue doesn't actually care about Hajime except in superficial ways; the issue of Shea "pretending" to be cheerfull is never brought up; Tio doesn't make any sense at all: her backstory and her behaviour don't match most of the time, she is just a token except when she is not; for al the guilt Kaori feels for Hajime's death, she doesn't do anything once she reunites with him except doing nothing once she joins him, etc.

 

[jean-chuck]

Fol is love, Fol is lyfe

 

[littleoni]

@WhoSainT
Well it seems I won't be PM'ing anyone because the DM system is down. Should I use some alternative channel for communication?

 

[randomslacker]

Novel spoilers

Spoiler

Chastel and Barbatos are slowly becoming a couple, like really slowly.

 

[MarqFJA87]

@WhoSainT: Is it just me who finds "happiness painting" on page 12 grammatically awkward/incorrect? I personally would've used either "happy painting" or "painting of happiness" if the Japanese text allowed it as a valid translation.

 

[Tamerlane]

Spoiler

That's good to hear. I thought just by personality alone there'd be some difficulty in getting those two to fall for one another, but if they both get more development and grow naturally together, then I can see it if it is very, very slow given how, at the start, those two are polar opposites.

@fernaldi01

Spoiler

Not really what I was saying. I took the position that I thought that couple was weird comparatively speaking and that the author would have to execute it very well in order for me to buy it. I wasn't saying that love rivals should never get over who they fall for, but that in this particular instance, the author would have to be very good at making both of the characters develop in a natural way towards one another.

@theilikepie

 

[RIG]

WHY DID YOU CHANGE THE "YOU PONYTAIL!" INSULT?! IT WAS LITERALLY THE CUTEST INSULT EVER AND YOU EDITED IT OUT!

 

[Arcverson]

Fucking hell.. people who don't want harem ending are gay, so is the author who doesn't make every remotely hot girl in the story hook up with the self insert MC goddammit!!

 

[theShear]

@randomslacker "reads your spoilers"

Spoiler

THATS ... huh ... actually that's kinda funny, I'm okay with that.

 

[Bunnybell]

@BloodySorcerer @littleoni I was looking forward it to continue grow into real love in slow pace from there on but.... I was stupid for expecting nice romance plot from revenge novel. As for other girls....just forget it. They're like collector's item

 

[b33fy]

I was worried for a minute there, but was instead pleasantly surprised. It's very refreshing to have a character show some levelheaded self-examination regarding their own emotions. I'm not really feeling the Chastell-as-a-maid role she seems to be taking instead, it doesn't quite seem like a good fit for her or her background, but, eh, I'll roll with it for now. She should confront Fol too rather than just enduring this harassment, it's not good for either of them.

 

[StarGasm]

Hey you. You're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border right? Walked right into that Imperial ambush, same as us, and that thief over there.

 

[mage_goo]

@littleoni

Yes and no. Technically, what we consider "official", or at least did in the previous context, is license AND curation by the writter/representative. And that's the main reason most writters didn't like scanlation groups: they were translating their work, but the author hadn't curated it so they didn't know whether the translation had actually anything to do with the original.

it's kinda curious how this would make most dubs from a few years back, some cr meme tl, or even a certain game localized memetastically by a certain game localizer not "official"
i mean, c'mon, i'm sure things like jelly-filled donut ain't something that's curated by the writer
or even things like this

Spoiler

 

[Quelandoris]

Fuck this series is too cute. I need more frequent updates

 

[danvolodar]

@Tamerlane people changing, and particularly changing for the better as a result of being in love, seems to be a pretty major theme in the LN.
Zagan has been a good example of this in the manga so far, even.

 

[littleoni]

@danvolodar
The character development is actually very well done most of the time for all characters, not just the main ones. Also the characters don't binarily feel love/indifference towards the MC, which has been the theme for most male fantasy protagonists for quite some time: every female either loves them at first sight or feels nothing at all for them. Here already we see Nephy's love, Chastille's respect and Foll's admiration, each expressed differently and distinctly enough so that you don't feel cornered into another faceless amalgamation of a harem (which is one of my main complaints about harem developments: every individual character becomes a flattened, simplified caricature of themselves with no actual personality). Every character introduced later (Gremory, Kuroka, even Selphy or Manuela) further reinforces the idea as none of them behave like headless bimbos around Zagan. And the eventual development of Chastille's feelings and relationship kinda crown it all. And I actually think that Barbatos is pretty much a perfect match for her from the very beginning.

 

[Deathhappens]

I love this manga so much you don't even know

 

[danvolodar]

@littleoni well yeah, Archdemon's Dilemma is very expressly not a harem manga: Zagan's

Spoiler

building what amounts to perhaps a daimyo household, surely not a harem.
Frankly, Barbatos has been stuck as a sort of comedic relief for a while now, which has stunted his character growth, so it's nice to see his arc going somewhere. That said, I really can't see the chemistry between him and Chastille, especially minding her over the top split personality (which has again a sort of comedic relief), sense of duty, etc - as opposed to his unabashed vileness. I mean, it kiiiiiinda works as a sort of a redemption story, but it's hardly adding anything to the theme next to Zagan and Nephy.

 

[littleoni]

@danvolodar

Spoiler

I didn't mean that Archdemon's Dilemma is a harem manga. It's very obviously not, and that's good. What I meant is that I liked it not being a harem because so far I have not read a single good harem developement in a male-lead fantasy styled manga or novel, at all.
About Chastille and Barbatos ... As far as I'm concerned they are perfect for each other not because of what's said in the work, but because of what isn't. Mostly about Barbatos. There is very little detail about his past or story, there is not much information about his personality either. What it is said is that he is one of the youngest sorcerers in existence (I think it's even implied he is the youngest behind Zagan, actually), but he was already a sorcerer when Zagan became one. And in such a short time he became a candidate without the level of cheats Zagan has (say what you want, but Zagan relies mostly on his ability to read and copy suff instantly, without it he would be so far behind other sorcerers it wouldn't be even funny. This is not a bad thing, it's fair he uses what's available to him, but when comparing him to other characters, it's important to account for them not having that advantage). He is also continuously insisting he behaves "like all sorcerers do", but from our experience (with Orias, Titania, Kimaris, Gremory, Marchosias, Andraelphus, I'm surely forgetting names) most truly powerful sorcerers don't behave that way at all. So where does his behaviour come from? Well, from incomplete experience, most likely. Why incomplete? Because most of his interaction was with Andras, who truly WAS a sorcerer the way Barbatos sees them. So he is making a conscious effort to behave like he is supposed to (in opposition to Zagan, who from the very beginning doesn't care about that, he just ends up the usual sorcerer, or so he thinks, because of convenience. This is important for the point you mentioned: the Chastille-Barbatos relationship doesn't mirror the Zagan-Nephy one). This isn't to say he "is a good persona at heart", no, not at all; he is a villianous piece of garbage, but his behaviour is vastly derived from meeting expectations.
Chastille, on the other hand, tries to do the same but kinda fails, and actively challenges what's expected of her. Her split personality is more or less a joke so that her character makes sense in a battle oriented narrative, but it's still consistent. Her personalities are not opposites nor contradictory: she doesn't beileve she can do something (hence her crybaby persona); but she actually can, so when she must she does (and appears reliable). This is reinforced because of the directionality of the switch: she becomes helpless if it's something related to herself, but she does her best and overcomes her doubts if it's to help someone. Now why this suggests to me that they are a good match? Industrious people (which is the definition of sorcerers in the work's context: people who put more importance in doing and learning stuff than social interaction or morality, or anything else for that matter) are very much driven by curiosity, they are atracted to the unknown and the unexpected. So Barbatos would see in Chastille something he doesn't quite understand: she, unlike Zagan, understands and cares about norms and expectations: she is a knight who fights sorcerers like she's supposed to, she works for the church and enforces law, she cares about other people's oppinion; much like Barbatos himself. But at the same time, she challenges those norms, pries deeper, tries to make sense of them while looking for a way to bend them. Again, this is different from Zagan who just doesn't care. And in Barbatos Chastille would see someone who, no matter what, will behave the same way towards her, someone she can use as a reference point. She stresses herself trying to marry her duty to her feelings (and with feelings I don't mean romantic ones, but her feelings in general: what she feels she should be doing) and Barbatos will equally insult her or protect her independently from her current façade. It's also important to mention the reason why Chastille likes Zagan at first: there is 3 reasons she herself mentions: she wants to be the one who saves him from loneliness, there is some suspension bridge effect after she gets saved by him a couple of times, and she respects him for braving the world for the good of his loved ones. So, there isn't actually anything there that Barbatos can't do, or that doesn't apply to him. At first, she doesn't know him enough to understand he is as lonely as Zagan, but later she does. She does get saved by him, and in the Azazel incident it's at a high cost. Barbatos is not going to turn hero suddenly and go full Zagan, but refering again to the Azazel incident, he proves he cares more about someone else than she does about himself (to a certain degree at least).
Then again, this is my own analysis and expectations. I always try to analyze a work of literature by assuming the author is smarter than me, so any conclusion I could arrive at they could too and more, and any complexity I could imagine they could too and they could make it even better. But in the end, this kind of analysis is based on reading between the lines. If the author wrote everything I have said in the book, it would be a bad book (because it would be treating the reader as a idiot who can't read between the lines, and it would have redundant information that can already be inferred), but at the same time there is more than one posible analysis depending on the degree os belief you put in the author. You could consider the author only means what he literally puts in text, or you could believe taht the author has left most of the deducible stuff out. Deductions can also be different for different people, and if we are talking psychology of the characters, the perception of it will be heavily affected by the psychology, and understanding of it, of the reader. I relate (or it's better to say I want to relate) to the sorcerers as industrious because I'm myself industrious and when they explain their motivations it just makes sense. For someone who doesn't think the way I do, they could still make sense but for completely different reasons.
So, in the end, this is personal analysis, feel free to take it appart in any way you like, or to ask for more explanations for any part you didn't understand, or to provide your own point of view on the whole or any part of it.

 

[danvolodar]

@littleoni oh, worry not - since I'm on the internet, I'm an expert on every topic from quantum computing to politics and personal relationships.

Spoiler

Duly noted on Barbatos and Chastille being shaped by the others' expectations. That said, I don't think the common perception of sorcerers as villains is only based on his old master - after all, it's often stated to be the belief of the Church and the general populace alike. Zagan himself, for that matter, too. As for Barbatos himself, I don't think he's currently much affected by the experiences with his master as much as those with Zagan, who is, frankly speaking, pretty abusive towards the guy. Barbatos's envy is pretty apparent, too - I mean, he's one of the youngest Archdemon candidates with unique powers to boot, then comes a stray who's utterly OP and easily outshines him. So I don't think he was chiefly motivated by any good feelings during the Azazel fight - even the ability he used was called Flames of Indignation; and his last words before going down were "Aren't I strong?!" And I guess while it'd be nice to see him changing, it remains to be seen if the author manages to keep him unique in the process.

A side note on sorcerers as villains: Bifrons is pretty clearly an egotistical maniac, and Sher Khan is into hunting rare species, and even Marchosias hunted seraphs to extinction, so I don't think the reluctance the general population has towards associating with them is all that unfounded.

A side note on Zagan not caring about social expectations: it's true enough that he doesn't much care for formal etiquette (well, as much as the Japanese author can imagine such a thing anyway), but he does very much care for Nephy's opinions and somewhat cares for the opinions of the rest of his household, which means he pretty much cares about etiquette by association.

I'm right now starting Volume 9 of LN, but it would appear very narrowly focused on Zagan and Nephy so far...