Sono Bisque Doll wa Koi o Suru - Ch. 106

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Author is literally giving us a bad ending version of something that HAS happened before. That's why it sucks so much, because by all means it shouldn't have happened, we've been through this before.
Not only about school school ark, BTW. This situation is mirroring Gojo staying the night at Marin home. But that was a comical ark (was it though, in context of current situation), and now it's not.

Those are actually really good points, and ones I hadn't considered. It's weird that the mangaka chose to retread such similar ground with wildly differing and disappointing outcomes. I can't understand why she would do that. The only explanation that makes immediate, intuitive sense to me is the one that some people have floated on the other thread, that she's sick of the series and is just punching in for the paycheck. Which I guess is possible, but what a time to burn out, right after the anime goes gangbusters.

The reading comprehension on these forums is poor.
... Yes, it is. And the critical reading skills are worse. Not helped when people twist others' words to have easier fights against strawmen, or misrepresent events in the actual manga. That's why it's so important to actually engage in good faith whenever one has the opportunity, instead of trying to find the weakest possible interpretation of others' arguments.

Just to be clear, when @Meth0d mentioned the quotes and evidence I presented, I believe they were referring to my other post in this thread answering someone with a similar misreading of my words. To the point that some of the points you raised are repeats of ones I've already addressed.
 
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She even came by the house to check on him due to his uncle being sick, I mean come the fuck on guys what are we doing?
Same as all too many others in countless related genre forums: Doubting, resenting - and just plain hating - women. When female characters in a romance story aren't the perfect little devoted sex objects, Males of a Certain Type get furious and break out the typewriter and cigarettes.
 
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You could say that the issue with non-chan is a non-issue now :meguu:
 
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Gonna side with Endominus on this one.

I will have some credit given to Marin because I think she has helped out here and there for Gojo and Gojo does seem to thoroughly enjoy working and hanging out with her.

But it is toxic. All you need to know before me rambling on is that Gojo is progressive Chad, while Marin is a bubbly exploiter.

The more I ruminate on that, it makes sense.

Gojo is the most development character in the story. He starts off socially reclusive and boxing himself with his passion due to patriarchal and childhood trauma. He goes the extra mile to finish the cosplay and ever since it is posted, his craftsmanship is shown unto the world. This is where the real payoff comes, not from Marin, but from JuJu wanting his services and a whole community recruiting him, making him more socially accepted. This also drastically improves his Hina doll skills and passionately create a cosplay that garnishes widespread attention. At this point, he is able to face his past and resolve it.


Marin? Marin begs him to make the cosplays, falls for his unintentional but god tier rizz on the train, receives a job offer over something that is 90% Gojos effort (which she was going to confront at the festival), ghosts him, and then lays him off…


Who did most of the effort on the Haniel cosplay, including the direction? Gojo.
How much of the pay off went to Gojo? 0. It all went to Marin and she didn’t even reach out to talk to him or give gratitude after the photo circle.


Yes, I agree, Marin has her reasons to break it off so Gojo can focus on Hina Dolls. But what did she do to equally return the favor? Worse, what did Gojo do to be ghosted?

This last chapter isn’t heartbreaking because it is the end of the romance. It’s heartbreaking because One is putting in all the hard work and the other reciprocates with exploitation in the long run.

I don’t dislike Marin because the reason why it took me a while to realize this is because she is genuinely charismatic too. But damn guilt tripping yourself and ghosting is not the answer to all those outfits he made.
 
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Those are actually really good points, and ones I hadn't considered. It's weird that the mangaka chose to retread such similar ground with wildly differing and disappointing outcomes. I can't understand why she would do that. The only explanation that makes immediate, intuitive sense to me is the one that some people have floated on the other thread, that she's sick of the series and is just punching in for the paycheck. Which I guess is possible, but what a time to burn out, right after the anime goes gangbusters.
AFAIK, from her own words, now manaka is free from influence of Editors and can write things she actually wants. And all the early stuff that made the series popular were forced on her by editors. So, the things we see now, is that author wanted initially. You can check her previous works, to see her writing skills.

But, according to some people who fluent in Japanese, current drama arcs are actually quite popular in Japan. It seems its only western audience isn't liking it.
 
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I think this misunderstanding will be resolved next chapter (or 2). Gojou is finally in a good mental position and the two of them are finally in the position where they (hopefully) have time to talk it out. I think were coming to the end of the depression arc.

… If it's not the end of the depressing stuff, we can get the pitchforks and torches ready.
 
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... Yes, it is. And the critical reading skills are worse. Not helped when people twist others' words to have easier fights against strawmen, or misrepresent events in the actual manga. That's why it's so important to actually engage in good faith whenever one has the opportunity, instead of trying to find the weakest possible interpretation of others' arguments.

Just to be clear, when @Meth0d mentioned the quotes and evidence I presented, I believe they were referring to my other post in this thread answering someone with a similar misreading of my words. To the point that some of the points you raised are repeats of ones I've already addressed.
Yeah, I found the follow up post and your interpretations are based on your preconceived notions of an intimate relationship needing to be transactional. I’m afraid you think that real life relationships are that way, but I don’t have the space to address that.

You’re painting Gojo as this extremely passive and basically pathetic human who cannot express anything for himself. Can’t say no to Marin if she asks, right? You’d have to because how could you paint her as an exploitative piece of shit without that? Except Gojo has stood up to her when he wanted to and there is not a single panel of him remarking that she has forced him to do something he does not want to do.

There are times when Gojo refuses to compromise in the quality of the cosplay even when Marin thinks it’s ok to. He told Marin to knock off asking him for super lewd cosplay. He basically ignored her when making the Haniel cosplay. Even the school festival point you hung your hat on is dashed in the next panel you see him in because he’s already reading the manga for the cosplay, indicating consent. You kinda gloss over these events because the foundation of your argument is Gojo = coward so Marin = taking advantage. To show him having agency destroys that line of thinking at the root, doesn’t it?

You mentioned critical reading because you think folks have to “see between the lines” of what has happened to come to the enlightenment you have when your point is really not that deep. You believe in transactional equality in the relationships and therefore Gojo > Marin. That’s not a barn burner dude, but let’s address it.

Before all this started, Gojo was a lonely hina doll make apprentice. He was basically shut in besides school and had zero friends. He had social anxiety due to a childhood trauma that hasn’t been addressed. That’s what he was.

Do you think he is exactly the same now?

Now, Marin was a local fashion model who was one of the idols of their school. She has friends and hangs out and lives on her own mostly due to reasons. She has weird interests that no one around her shares including cosplay, but has a strong dislike around judging what others enjoy to do.

Is she the same now?

Who has changed more? Do you think Gojo makes that change without her intervention? Is he better off before he met her? Do you think being in a better mental space is not worth anything? They went out to the beach, how does that benefit Marin and not Gojo? When they were walking around the fireworks festival, what scheme did Marin hatch to take advantage of Gojo? Ah, she did get carried so maybe she loosened her sandal on purpose. She told him she loved him. It wasn’t heard by Gojo but surely it’s part of a larger scheme to take advantage of him, right? Maybe after kid two, she jumps into action.

I realize as I type this out that you gotta have different standards of relationships to ignore the story beats that show genuine care between these two people. Through Gojo’s act of service or Marin’s continued attempts to drag him out of his shell, they both show it.

As a matter of fact, don’t worry about responding. You just view how people actually interact with each other differently on a fundamental level. No word count is going to change that.
 
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@nidaime
So your whole opposition to my arguments can be summed up as two fundamental misreadings of my post.

The first is that Marin is forcing Gojou to do anything. I never said that. Literally, go reread the post and try to find a single sentence that claims that. Here's some choice quotes; "she's a passive recipient to his efforts" - note the word passive; "She... ends up dumping all of the emotional and physical labor of their relationship onto Gojou" - that's probably the most critical I was of her actual behavior, and again, never mentions her purposefully trying to take advantage of him.

Or this entire paragraph: "She's 15, though. And an only child. The only real, deep relationship she would have at this point is that to her parents, where she would be the passive recipient of all of their love and attention. That's how she acts in this relationship too; she's more like Gojou's child than his girlfriend. Of course she doesn't have the emotional maturity to actually give equally to a partner. And no one would expect her to. I'm not making a value judgement of her - just pointing out how unfair this whole situation is to him."

And from that, with your vaunted reading comprehension skills, you come to the conclusion that I'm accusing her of forcing him into doing cosplay for her. Do you see why that's annoying?

The other misreading is that I think that love should be transactional. Of course it shouldn't. Any score-keeping by the people in a relationship is an obvious sign that it's doomed. But we're not the characters. As an audience, our judgement of their relationship does not affect it's character. And if our goal is critical analysis, if we want to actually take stories seriously, we cannot take the text's interpretation of events at face value.

I'm pretty sure you won't bother to actually read this, but for the others who are interested, and in the interest of encouraging more people to think critically about media, let's think about another series that hopefully there's less intense feelings about. Take the series Twilight. For those that don't know, it's a romance series about a vampire falling in love with a human. And crucially to my point, the text is insistent that the vampire, Edward, and the human, Bella, do, in fact, love each other. Madly. They are in an absolutely idealized relationship in the mind of the author.

Now, critics might find fault in that relationship. They might point out that the male lead is over 100 years old and is engaging in a sexual relationship with a teenage girl. They might point out that he stalks her, controls her, and attempts to commit suicide when he thinks he can't have her. They might call this relationship dysfunctional.

None of this matters to someone who takes the text at face value because again, according to the text, Edward is madly in love with Bella and everything he does is as a result of that love. That's why, to read critically, we have to ignore the text's own judgement of its characters' relationships and argue from the evidence shown by their actions. We as the audience have the freedom to actually judge the way that characters interact with each other and hold them to account without making the relationship toxic. As the first line of the Wikipedia article for critical reading states, "Critical reading is a form of language analysis that does not take the given text at face value, but involves a deeper examination of the claims put forth as well as the supporting points and possible counterarguments."

When it comes to love, going by gut feelings is not going to work. I can't just say, "I don't think these two characters are really in love" and not expect someone to answer "Well I think they are." That doesn't work as a method of analysis. We need a framework to go off of, some way to judge how healthy and functional a given romantic relationship is. There are any number we can use and the actual framework we choose is arbitrary. For the purposes of this example, let's use the 5 love languages as described by Gary Chapman, since that's probably the most accessible and simplest to understand, and return to Sono Bisque Doll.

  1. Acts of service: I think this is the one @nidaime and others of misunderstand me of thinking is the only one that exists. Obviously, it's the one that Gojou shows to Marin and is not reciprocated. But not reciprocating in one or any specific language is fine, as long as the partner feels loved. Gojou may not even want Marin to return with acts of service; the type of love that a person may want to receive is not necessarily the one that they feel most comfortable giving. But that brings us to:

  2. Physical intimacy: This is what Marin kinda gave Gojou the most at the earliest stages of the manga, and it's one that he was viscerally uncomfortable with. If someone argued that this is how she showed her love to Gojou, I would have to object. Offering constant physical intimacy to someone who doesn't want it is not love, it's sexual harrassment.

  3. Gifts: We don't really see evidence of this from Marin. This could be seen as Gojou's love language as well, if one interprets his cosplay costumes that way, but I disagree. His labor is the gift, especially given that Marin pays for the material costs involved.

  4. Words of affirmation: We're getting a little warmer here, but run into another problem. You see, the most effusive praise that Marin gives Gojou is mostly (mostly! I'm not making an absolutist statement) about the things he gives or does for her. His cooking, his cosplays, his makeup work. There isn't much about his intrinsic worth as a human being, his personal value to her outside of his gifts, whatever. If I was actually making the argument that she was openly manipulating him - if! - this would actually be the fulcrum that I would rest that argument on. It's not, and I'm not, but it's concerning to me that this is the most common form of compliments she gives.

    There's a somewhat well-known reddit thread (yes, I know, reddit, whatever) that asks men what would surprise women to learn about them. A large number of responses detail how little actually positive affirmation they receive about who they are rather than what they do for their partners. And it's a sentiment that I've seen echoed by a lot of men whenever, say, the issue of suicide or depression comes up online.

  5. Finally, quality time: This is probably the one. The thing that Marin actually does for Gojou that does help him out. Just by taking him outside of his shell and exposing him to her own world. And it's good that she does this! Getting him out of his shell has done wonders for him as a person. He needed someone to do this. Marin did. Full credit to her. The issue I pointed out, that many people seem to have missed, is that the fact that this helped him seems almost accidental. That's why I classified it as a gift from the mangaka rather than an attempt for Marin to do something nice or helpful for Gojou. Marin doesn't, to this day, seem to grok that he has self-esteem issues. She seems baffled that this supremely skilled tailor and artist doesn't think the world of himself. Again, this circles back to emotional maturity. She wants to have fun and loves to have fun with him specifically. But there's this gap between them that, especially with her behavior since the Haniel arc, she doesn't seem to understand or want to cross.
Gojou is/was suffering from severe emotional neglect. He is still carrying heavy scars from it (and as mean as people think I'm being towards Marin, trust me, I have thoughts regarding Gojou's grandfather). That is going to feed into any relationship he has. Marin is the first same-age person he's had a friendship with since his parents died. That places an enormous emotional burden on her to be his emotional support. It's not his fault, it's not hers, but that's simply the reality of a romantic relationship with someone with as much psychological damage as him. That's why I point out how unfair and harmful it is that she walks away when he needs her emotionally. Taken seriously, that is fucking traumatic for him.

Anyway, that's enough from me regarding their relationship. If @madzai is right that this kind of drama is what the mangaka has wanted from the series all along, then I guess this was all for nought, anyway. To be honest, right now I'm kinda expecting a confession at the conclusion of this arc. At least that would make its more devoted readers happy.
 
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I remember a few chapters ago when the two were leaving Comiket, and Gojou was feeling moody after seeing everyone fawning over Marin while Marin responded by completely ignoring him, and there were comments in these sections getting annoyed at Gojou for "ruining Marin's special day".
People were mad because after he put in all that unhealthy obsessive effort for her sake, when he then stood there watching from the sidelines as everyone fawned over her, they didn't think he was happy enough for her.
thanks for the reminder... now im fucking angry... AGAIN!!
 
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(I posted this in the Church of Potteto's version of this chapter as well, but I prefer Tonikaku Scans' translation, so I thought I might as well post it here as well. Broadly the same, with an addendum regarding further thoughts on this chapter at the bottom)

I've been ruminating on the last couple of chapters since they came out, and have kinda changed my mind about Marin and Gojou's relationship, especially after reading some of the comments people left. It has become increasingly clear that this honestly isn't healthy. For either of them. They're codependent, with Gojou enabling Marin's lack of responsibility and emotionally selfish nature. There's a lot of wailing about the drama and people wanting a return to wholesomeness but if you take a step back, this doesn't feel wholesome at all. A relationship, especially a romantic one, should be mutually beneficial. Is this that?

Ask yourself; what does Gojou do for Marin? He makes her costumes, forgoing sleep, study, and even his own ambitions to do so. He cooks for her. He acts as a social bond to another cosplayer that can't stand Marin herself. He spends what must at this point be hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of yen to make her as happy as she can possibly be in her hobby.

What does Marin do for Gojou?

...

No, honestly, what does Marin do for Gojou? What interest does she actually show in him, as opposed to what he can do for her? Because as far as I can recall, Chapter 103 - in volume fucking 14 - is the first time the two of them went out and did something purely related to Gojou's interests and desires. Everything else is a result of or preparation for something that Marin or her friends wanted to do. She's "nice" to Gojou in that she doesn't immediately make fun of him for having a slightly weird hobby, but that's not some amazing feat - that's table stakes for being a decent human being. She has about as right to be considered a good partner as those interminable harem protagonists who get the girl because they are the only males in their stories who treat the romantic interests with basic respect.

"Oh, but he's gotten better at making hina dolls since he started helping her." "Oh, he met that other friend as a result of his interest in prop-making." "Oh, the class has a better opinion of him since he helped do her makeup." If that's your response, you completely misread the question. I asked specifically what Marin actively chooses to do to for the purposes of helping Gojou out with his life.

See, a lot of people pointed out to this being a self-insert fic from the author, and I can see it. This story revolves around the interests of the female lead, and everything that the male lead wants or feels is sublimated to that. He wants to be a hina doll artist? Well, helping the female lead with her costumes makes him better at that! He wants to make friends and connect to the people around him? Well, joining the female lead's social group is how he does that! At no point does Marin actively reach out and try to aid him; she's a passive recipient to his efforts and the universe (read; the mangaka) rewards him for sacrificing everything to her.

You know you fucked up your romance when Nagatoro, the girl whose first encounter with her romantic partner ended with him in tears, ends up a healthier, more balanced, and more giving partner than your female lead. At least Nagatoro - who I remind everyone started out as NTR-bait emotional abuse porn on twitter - was aware of and concerned about the inner life of her partner!

You have to feel sorry for Gojou. He's been placed in a universe where he'll never win, will never find true happiness, except in subservience to anothers' whims. The manga even says so - Chapter 94. "Wakana, too... As long as he lives, I don't think he'll find satisfaction. So, Marin-chan, please make sure to praise the things that Wakana makes." Hell, even though during the last cosplaying arc with Haniel Gojou was actually into things for his own reasons, the way it got presented - with Gojou on his knees begging Marin for forgiveness for being "selfish" enough to ask her to cosplay as a character she told him she wanted to cosplay as - positions him as a supplicant to Marin.

And taking that line, that this isn't a romcom centered around an ecchi gyaru with a love of cosplay but instead a dramedy about a toxic relationship with that gyaru, actually puts their earlier interactions in a new light. Marin's strongest character trait, from the very beginning, was that she didn't care what other people felt. She didn't care if they thought she was rude, or if she was weird for openly talking about porn, or anything. Remember all that kinda pervy stuff from those early volumes? How uncomfortable Gojou felt every time she gave him stuff to watch or he had to measure her for costumes? Remember how she never cared at all about trying to make him feel more comfortable (or, hell, maybe compromising in the smallest possible way so that he didn't feel that way)? How she didn't care that exposing his skill as a tailor or makeup artist might scare him or alienate him from the class (you might say "she knew it wouldn't result in anything bad - but we NEVER see her reassure him about that! That seems like a great moment of caring and friendship that this manga just... never bothers with)?

Marin never compromises on what she wants. Compromising your desires is for Gojou.

I mentioned Marin being akin to a Manic Pixie Dream Girl; you know the trope. Super-bubbly extroverted "quirky" girl who meets a shy, introverted, inexpressive loner and slowly breaks down his shell with irrepressible energy. It's a common enough male fantasy in media. Except this is more the flipped version of it, the female fantasy. She's a teenager with basically no self-control (she spent thousands of dollars on a DSLR camera because it's model name started with the same letter as her own!), no ability to manage her life (shown by her eating habits), no thought towards social norms or niceties (framed as her being straightforward, but that's not really consistent with her absolute reticence regarding Gojou. A more consistent explanation is that she just doesn't care about offending or discomforting others), and ends up dumping all of the emotional and physical labor of their relationship onto Gojou.

This is coming off as more mean-spirited than I intend. Sure, she's way too nonchalant about how much she asks or expects from her partner. She's 15, though. And an only child. The only real, deep relationship she would have at this point is that to her parents, where she would be the passive recipient of all of their love and attention. That's how she acts in this relationship too; she's more like Gojou's child than his girlfriend. Of course she doesn't have the emotional maturity to actually give equally to a partner. And no one would expect her to. I'm not making a value judgement of her - just pointing out how unfair this whole situation is to him.

The longer this goes on, frankly, the less I want this romance to continue. Gojou gives so much, so readily, desperate for any scrap of acceptance. He's still mentally that orphan, scared of the world and dependent on a calcified shell to protect him from it. Closed, afraid to reach out and ask for help, to let anyone know that it's too much for him. He deserves someone who'll reach over, who'll tell him it's okay to rely on her for a while, that his needs matter too. A person who can say "we" instead of "I".

Because Marin sure as shit won't.

Hell, at this point I think Non would make a better pairing. At least in this chapter she treats Gojou as someone whose feelings matter and that she has to talk to when they have problems, rather than Marin's fundamentally cowardly and self-centered solution of just walking the fuck away whenever the risk of being vulnerable rears up.

ADDENDUM: So this chapter's ending can kind of be seen as Marin compromising, giving up on her goals to support Gojou. But if that's the case, if that's how it's meant to be perceived, the problem is even worse than I originally thought. Even for teenagers, this is painful to watch. Imagine that this happened to you. Imagine you had a friend who introduced you to a hobby - say, rock climbing or something else you were nervous about doing publically because of self-image issues, and introduced you to a friend group through it, and you've spent a bunch of time and energy with them enjoying this hobby together.

Then you try to introduce your friend to something you're interested in and you're kind of shy about. Maybe you're a high-level esports player trying to go pro and mention how much time it takes to practice your skills. You know, the kind of thing that friends talk about; the situations in their lives and the struggles they're going through. This is the first time you've opened up like this, after like half a year of friendship.

And then that friend, immediately afterwards, straight up ghosts you. That's kind of weird, you think, so you go to their house to see what's up, and that friend, before you can even finish asking about plans to go rock climbing next weekend, says that they never want to go rock climbing with you again. And their excuse is that obviously you care so much about being a professional esports player that you have no time for the hobby they introduced you to.

Do you understand how shocked and hurt and betrayed you'd feel at that moment?

This is not a romance. I'm sorry, it just isn't. Neither of these characters treat the other as a romantic interest. Gojou definitely doesn't see Marin in a romantic light - he doesn't even see her in an erotic way any more! He spent the night at her house, hopped up on aphrodisiac energy drinks, and thought nothing of it. And Marin doesn't even treat Gojou as a friend, let alone a potential boyfriend. She treats him like a simp. Where other girls might have a guy like him saved as "Free Lunch" on their phones, he's "Cheap Costumes". AND HE ALSO MAKES HER LUNCH! The only hint that she sees him as anything greater was her promising herself she would confess to him three arcs and two years ago. And then... nothing.
Despair
 
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Eh, seeing as the prev drama was wrapped up fairly quick, I'm willing to give the series benefit of the doubt that they're actually going to talk it out
 
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Maybe bitching at this point, but I think 17 pages for a monthly publication is bad productivity. Hot takes right? Come bite me
Nah, it's a fair point. We don't get more pages with 2 chapters per month releases, we get one chapter sliced in half. I guess next will be 30 pages, coz whatever author is brewing, she need 30 pages for it.
 
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wow finally catching up, this is something else... i feel like the chapters are way to damn short...
 
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Apparently this has gone back to monthly, 2 weeks away to next chapter.

In the meantime this seasons anime is doing a whole lot better than this. Who knows with this manga, we might just end up with all heroines losing :02:
 
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I actually forgot what the drama between them is about. Can someone remind me what happened and say which chapter it happened in? I remember something happened during the big cosplay event but cant remember what exactly
 

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