Shin'yuu no Furin Aite wa, Otto deshita - Vol. 3 Ch. 17

[MrMeh]

Friendships between men are not better. They are not stigmatized as friendships between women. Dudes bitch among them. And it's more common than what people think.

They are better generally as we don't tolerate mind games and our own insecurity nearly as much.
A man who let's his insecurity or other mental illnesses consume him isn't traditionally wasn't allowed into a position of power and should he try, he'll be knocked down by a better man until he grows up and fixes his issues.
You're referring to the dregs that fester at the bottom of masculinity, feeding each other affirmation, brewing their resentment, providing nothing for society other than entitlement.

That being said things have shifted lately because westernized civilisation is culturally collapsing and the worst types of people are being incentivised into leadership roles.
Men that act in the same gross pecking order manner we see in frankly low-tier women are becoming more common.
Particularly in middle class areas (UK meaning).

This conception that friendships between women are wicked, shallow, and ephemeral is another way to control women, to prevent them from talking to each other.

Outsiders (both men and women btw) make an observation of common negative female interaction, somehow noticing such prevents women from fixing their attitude.

I sincerely hope Kyoko will get past her internalized misogyny.

Call it for what it is, pathological insecurity and envy.

Stop blaming on men and take accountability for this mental illness.
You think we want women to compete in such vile ways?
Many of us have mothers who've been traumatised and have trust issues because of this pecking order shite.
It's highly unattractive but we're so disarmed as men thanks to comments like yours that we can't call even it out.

 

[EchoGirl]

Thanks

Hope it works out. tho maybe mahoro should try talking to her own husband. if not raise her kid to treat women properly lol

I've always thought the cliche of female frienships being toxic was hyperbole and I still do, but why is this such a common theme in media in general. It can't really be that bad can it?

Ppl can be two faced regardless of gender , i half expect a plot of one of them being a repressed lesbian and wanting mc instead lol

Dunno if it's a full JP saying like 'nail that sticks out gets hammered down', but i remember seeing two live action jdramas where someone used the phrase 'women's friendship is thinner than ham' or something like that
, dun rly associate ham with thinness but maybe they were talking about those large cuts you slice yourself or whatever

 

[Oeconomist]

This conception that friendships between women are wicked, shallow, and ephemeral is another way to control women, to prevent them from talking to each other.

Yes, THEY have bribed and blackmailed hundreds or thousands of quisling women to spread this misogynist myth!

 

[AnimuVsMango]

Jesus Christ Rio is a fucking psychopath. Guess who just got put back on the sussy baka list?

 

[Birdulon]

i half expect a plot of one of them being a repressed lesbian and wanting mc instead lol

I half expected yaoibait twist with Rei bringing up hair products.

 

[Friendly-Sentence710]

Jesus Christ Rio is a fucking psychopath. Guess who just got put back on the sussy baka list?

Yeah I'm pretty sure its Rio. She baited Kyouko into drawing heat from their affair is what I'm feeling.

I half expected yaoibait twist with Rei bringing up hair products.

Haruto x Rei is the plot twist we deserve.

---

Friendships between men are not better. They are not stigmatized as friendships between women.

lol

This conception that friendships between women are wicked, shallow, and ephemeral is another way to control women, to prevent them from talking to each other. Like REALLY talk to each other. The number of assholes that would be outed if some women talked to each other—the world would be a much better place.

It's really a shame that some women think like Kyouko. Aside from the talk about beauty privilege, that is true and even more so in our society, where appearance is more rewarded and promoted than knowledge, kindness, or any other quality, but it's not the subject here. Her saying that friendship between women doesn't count... yeah, no.

There are toxic people of every sex and every type. Its not limited to women sure. There are also regional, cultural, and socio-economic distinctions to be sure.

From my experience and a close-up look inside the female friendship sausage factory through my sisters:
Its more common in female friendships because women are "forced" to have friends they don't particularly like and are expected to interact with them like everyone gets along. It is these relationships where most of the stereotypical toxic female friend circle behavior comes from - you don't like them, you aren't really friends, so stabbing them in the back isn't something you'll lose sleep over and often you feel like is deserved payback for something they did to you.
There is a huge blah blah blah to say here about pecking orders most straight men don't give two shits about so that if you're actually friends with Monica but utterly loathe Diane, you are shit out of luck because if you're hanging out with Monica, Diane has to be invited as well or Monica won't come - and you are not allowed to say anything negative about Diane in Monica's presence - and if Monica doesn't come now Becca is giving you the cold shoulder because how could you shut Monica out like that, etc.
Versus if you're friends will Bill and just can't stand Greg, you just don't invite Greg and Bill probably already knows you can't stand that guy because you've mentioned it and no one gets bend out of shape if you don't like everyone in their circle.

I'd like to say this is highschool bullshit but its not.
There is nothing, NOTHING quite like watching the Moms group coming over as the kids have a playdate and they are talking and complimenting each other while also knowing who absolutely loathes whom and is trying to get them quiet-kicked/shunned from the group.

But when they actually get along and voluntarily interact, women are super supportive and extremely close... which means if that friendship unravels, it does so in spectacular fashion.

I get that she has really low self-esteem, and she is ashamed after what she did to Mahoro. But sororities save women's lives. Girls and women have a better chance to die at the hands of their husband, boyfriend, or another man than another woman.

I sincerely hope Kyoko will get past her internalized misogyny.

that's just in general. You are more likely to be killed by someone you know than a stranger.
Also the disparity in the spousal murder rate is skewed. When you read about cases where the husband kills the wife, the case usually goes "Guy shot wife. Blames robbers. Maybe had the foresight to ditch the gun." vs. the average wife case where "because an investigator just happened notice something out of place, it was determined the wife poisoned the husband and after 3 years of investigation she was finally arrested and tried" or "Wife got her affair partner to off her husband"

I talked with a former detective who talked about the number of people who he knew had gotten away with murder because they didn't have enough evidence or good enough evidence. A lot of them involved the wife.


And lol sororities.

 

[Birdulon]

If the genders were reversed then the same people would have called kyouko a creepy incel and Rei a #BossBabe.

100%
"she was just being nice, which apparently is way more than you deserve or can handle💅"
"of course she has to shut you down hard, it's actually the kind way to do so since you apparently mistake 👏 basic 👏 courtesy 👏 for romantic attraction"
"Even if she was blunt about it, it's basic hygiene, put the effort in if you want to be taken seriously. He should be thankful she even told him what was wrong. 🤷‍♀️"

 

[Saybah]

A classic trope would suggest that Rio might be the most messed up here out of everyone.

 

[kiero13]

Really? Is the author a man or something? What's with these stories repeatedly underestimating women friendships?

Friendships get ruined by insecurity, not because it weak due to the genders. She wasn't that spiteful against the mc at the beginning and genuinely liked their group.

 

[EchoGirl]

I half expected yaoibait twist with Rei bringing up hair products.

i mean while there are some stereotypes of gays also hating women you'd think a 'beard' marriage might be obvious if not him only marrying her b/c she was rich but he still got the body wash thing wrong too

 

[Birdulon]

i mean while there are some stereotypes of gays also hating women you'd think a 'beard' marriage might be obvious if not him only marrying her b/c she was rich but he still got the body wash thing wrong too

I didn't expect it to actually be the answer, but I expected Mahoro to have a "wait what if it's one of my male friends" arc.

 

[Saybah]

Really? Is the author a man or something? What's with these stories repeatedly underestimating women friendships?

Friendships get ruined by insecurity, not because it weak due to the genders. She wasn't that spiteful against the mc at the beginning and genuinely liked their group.

Pretty certain the author is a woman based on author's message I've seen at the end of each chapters.

 

[tototototoo]

Really? Is the author a man or something? What's with these stories repeatedly underestimating women friendships?

Friendships get ruined by insecurity, not because it weak due to the genders. She wasn't that spiteful against the mc at the beginning and genuinely liked their group.

It’s a bit of a Japan (happens elsewhere too of course) thing sadly and not just with women nor just with friendships. A lot of relationships are just surface level, even marriages like Kyouko’s. It’s a lot less common to have extremely deep relationships (though that’s absolutely changing) where one actually connects deeply and shares their feelings. For a lot of people in Japan it seems to be that when you are with ‘friends’ you have a good time and thus bringing up personal issues is a big no-no as are deep topics. Of course that does not go for everyone, but the way we look back at Mahoro’s friend group I do think that’s the case. Do they hang out because they like one another? Or because they can tolerate each other and have a good time together and otherwise they’d be alone? Even though that means swallowing their feelings and issues for the sake of ‘harmony’.

Remember, standing out isn’t wanted nor causing ‘problems’ for others even if that means swallowing everything in silence till you break.

 

[bluepanda800]

Rei has done nothing we've seen that comes to even 1/10th the shit kyouka just pulled.

Maybe instead of trying to find dirt on your husband, which you now have even less of a reason to distrust, who's greatest crime seems to just be being lazy/inattentive, you instead focus your efforts on getting rid of these snakes in your friend group. They are clearly more of a danger to you

Wait. Huh?

I think we established that Mahoro has recognised that Rei is a bad partner and she wants out of the relationship.

We dont know for sure he's been cheating but he's definitely been shady (who else cleaned up the condoms- and then never brought it up?) And for the sake of her sanity or so she can leave the relationship cleanly she wants to get to the truth but doesn't trust Rei to give it.

Her friend group has snakes but saying she has no reason to distrust Rei is wild. At what point has he shown himself to be a decent reliable partner who she can talk to- do we not remember hiw he ignored the body wash being out until Mahoro noticed expecting her to buy more getting huffy when she put her foot down on the matter? Or how shes been restless and suspicious of him for months and he's not clocking somethings wrong and trying to talk to her about it?

 

[Nosebleed]

Really? Is the author a man or something? What's with these stories repeatedly underestimating women friendships?

Friendships get ruined by insecurity, not because it weak due to the genders. She wasn't that spiteful against the mc at the beginning and genuinely liked their group.

I'd say this line fits Kyouko's mentality perfectly at this moment.

She's undermining women's friendships because she's projecting as a defense mechanism due to her own insecurity. She knows she's a horrible person (self-admitted), therefore considering every other woman's friendship as shallow and vapid as hers makes her feel less worthless (If I'm like this, it's because everyone else is too, so I didn't do anything wrong. That type of logic). It's all a result of self-loathing.

Also just because the author wrote this line doesn't mean she or the story is condoning the mentality. I'd say it's quite the opposite in this case, in fact. As the reader, you are generally instinctively against what Kyouko said, because you've seen Mahoro being a real, non-vapid friend.

 

[EchoGirl]

I didn't expect it to actually be the answer, but I expected Mahoro to have a "wait what if it's one of my male friends" arc.

I don’t think we’ve seen other men but other than an ex coworker at a job idk if she has female friends if hubby isn’t the uptight traditional kind that wouldn’t “let her” have male friends but I can imagine some women feeling awkward and distant after they get married

or like how ppl say married couples are only friend w/each other since it makes hanging out with single ppl together make them feel like a third wheel but as long as you’re not going on date spots or being too lovey dovey hanging out with a couple shouldn’t be too weird

 

[wai_ma1]

Aww man, the whole "Be careful. You can never count on friendship between women." thing put a real bad taste in my mouth. Though, I think that's more of Kyouko thing because of her own hitches and issues with relating and having relationships with women.

I've always thought the cliche of female frienships being toxic was hyperbole and I still do, but why is this such a common theme in media in general. It can't really be that bad can it?

Men and women can be equally toxic in relationships like friendships. There are nuances, I won't lie and say that women and men operate the same. Men and women are toxic in friendships, they're just toxic in different ways.

There are women who will pick at and micromanage each other and will not let shit go, there is a hierarchy that must be followed and everyone wants to be at the top by any means necessary.
There are men who will sooner put a bullet in their skulls, alone in their bedrooms, than be genuinely open with one another in their emotions, fears, and insecurities, there too is a hierarchy that must be followed and everyone wants to be at the top by any means necessary.

However. People who say otherwise like "all women are inherently toxic to one another in friend groups" or "all men are toxic to one another in friend groups" as if what's between your legs makes you magically better at something as simple as making and maintaining friendships, something so natural and general to the human experience are fucking idiots. They either do not interact with the opposite sex enough and their view of the opposite sex has tinted by stereotypes and biased anecdotes by other bitter people who've been scorned by the opposite sex it or they are those bitter people like @Machaka22 or @MrMeh.

It's just certain media, like this one here, will show the whole toxic women's friendship trope because it's a easy trope to use to generate drama and mystique. This IS a Josei manga with the main theme being cheating. I would be surprised if there wasn't the usage of a women's friendship being intricate and intertwined with the cheating aspect.

 

[EchoGirl]

It's just certain media, like this one here, will show the whole toxic women's friendship trope because it's a easy trope to use to generate drama and mystique. This IS a Josei manga with the main theme being cheating. I would be surprised if there wasn't the usage of a women's friendship being intricate and intertwined with the cheating aspect.

either way i hope it gets a live action drama lol, i can imagine some ppl defending the husband if they choose a 'hot enough' actor for him XD

 

[Birdulon]

Men and women can be equally toxic in relationships like friendships.

There are women who will pick at and micromanage each other and will not let shit go,

There are men who will sooner put a bullet in their skulls, alone in their bedrooms, than be genuinely open with one another in their emotions

To be clear, are you actually claiming that micromanaging - controlling other people is equally toxic to not being genuinely open? I don't want to misrepresent you but I have seen others with this sentiment and it's very hard for me to take seriously.
Not to downplay friends being very closed off and unavailable, but it's a bit of a reach to put that alongside actively trying to dominate and/or destroy each other's lives on a toxicity scale.

I'm a simple man, if a friend falls off the face of the world for a few years and comes back like nothing ever happened and doesn't want to talk about it, we're still friends.
If I find out a friend unrepentantly tried to undermine someone's marriage, we are no longer friends until they seriously change and consider that at least as evil and detestable as I find it.

 

[MrMeh]

However. People who say otherwise like "all women are inherently toxic to one another in friend groups" or "all men are toxic to one another in friend groups" as if what's between your legs makes you magically better at something as simple as making and maintaining friendships, something so natural and general to the human experience are fucking idiots. They either do not interact with the opposite sex enough and their view of the opposite sex has tinted by stereotypes and biased anecdotes by other bitter people who've been scorned by the opposite sex it or they are those bitter people like @Machaka22 or @MrMeh.

Discussing averages or common trends does not mean "all women, all men etc", I made sure to be explicit that I was referring to a common phenomenon rather than every woman on the planet.
But feel free to throw insults and paint me as whatever character you like.