Vinland Saga - Vol. 28 Ch. 209 - Thousand Year Voyage Part 18

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You don't often meet someone who can openly admit that he think ignorance is worse than being extreme. Ignorance is also a form of misguidance btw.
When that ignorance (and it's not like Ivar's ignorance is the sole reason the way he is) is part of what leads a person to heavily romanticize war (and look for excuses to engage in it rather than avoid it), subvert the rules of his settlement leader, have to be physically restrained from attacking a pregnant women (simply because said pregnant woman mocked him and ticked him off), and act belligerent towards a small woman like Niskawaji'j for simply looking at their boats, yeah I am going to be less sympathetic towards them than to a person like Miskwekepu'j who decided to resort to extremes out of fear for the future well-being of his tribe.

The shaman is trying to find a casus belli to summon warrior and attack the Nords, assuming he has the personality of a bully, he would just keep trying until someone snap and gets him injured... or not since the plague happens and he (rightfully) blame the Nords for that. Ivar "just" accelerated the process.
As far has we have seen, Miskwekepu'j does not have the personality of a bully, desperate and cunning sure, but not a bully as far as the story has shown. Also I doubt, if Miskwekepu'j had been taken-down and disabled by Thorfinn (in a hypoethical scenarion where Ivar and his sword didn't exist), that his tribe would have allowed him to continue attempting to attack the Vinland settlers and create a casus belli. Miskwekepu'j continuing and succeeding in creating a casus belli was not inevitable, while Ivar ensured that Miskwekepu'j was successful. Ivar is responsible for more than simple acceleration of the process.

And now that you mention Hilde, Ivar's entire character could have been played by her since she has a crossbow, which is an even better weapon than a sword, main difference would be that she wouldn't overreact like Ivar did but would still own a weapon that would attract unwanted attention.
Not really, as not only does a crossbow have a higher level of skill development required to use it effectively, a crossbow is a not a tool/weapon created solely for infliciting violence on other human beings like a sword is (Hild's crossbow was is primarily for hunting), which is why something like a sword holds narrative and real-life symoblic meaning.

Sure but assuming a casus belli that allow the shaman to summon warriors, they wouldn't want to go back home without some sort of loot, sword or not, which is why Thorfinn is currently being chased.
Thorfinn is currently being chased because the attempts at diplomacy and negotiation ended up breaking down between Thorfinn and the allied tribes (and the allied tribes with each other primairly because the chieftan Mu'in desired Ivar's sword), and Thorfinn and co. had to flee to avoid being captured by Mu'in and his tribe (and potentially being killed). The ones in pursuit of Thorfinn haven't even expressed any specific motivation like the raider Ga'aoqi has.

I'll assume there's a typo here because this is what I've been saying.
Yes, I meant to say "wouldn't".

Dunno, his character is up for interpretation and the way I see it is that he's not the kind of guy who can sit and listen to the old shaman for long while the others warriors were at least disciplined enough for that which is why I think he would still attack the village before anyone else.
Ga'aoqi's primary motivation for attacking the village has been stated to be his desire to get Ivar's sword, trying to argue that a character would choose to do the exact same thing without his primary stated motivation existing (the same thing that is causing the chieftan Mu'uin to not agree with Miskwekepu'j the shaman) isn't a strong argument, regardless of his personality.
 
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God in heaven, do you have to bitch and moan in every chapter? You don't like the manga, then fuck off. Quit following it. Go upstairs and complain to your mom, we're tired of hearing it.
This was one of my favourite manga and I still rate it a 9 you tool, go upstairs for the first time in three months to smell the fresh air mate. No one but yourself is keeping you down in the basement.
 
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Most tribes survive by killing other tribes. Most of them aren't peaceful, they're just doing what they think is best for the survival of their tribe.
people striking this really need to read up on history. Thanksgiving? A celebration because pilgrims and a tribe teamed up and smoked another tribe out of existence. There was no unified native force in North America, not until it was too late
 
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We don't see human sacrifice from the Nords anywhere in the manga and the story happen in a period of time where christianism is becoming the dominant religion in the region.
Meanwhile, at the same period of time the mesoamerican were still doing human sacrifices and will continue to do so until they meet the conquistador.
I can also bring moral relativism into the fray by saying that what you consider an atrocity by today's standards was the norm for an aztec and that not sacrifying people would be the atrocity for them.

Dunno, if the ritual only ask for 1 sacrifice a month for example, the number of people sacrified doesn't change regardless of population.

Good job turning humans lives into statistics btw
If you look into pagan norse beliefs, there was definitely human sacrifice
 
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This was one of my favourite manga and I still rate it a 9 you tool, go upstairs for the first time in three months to smell the fresh air mate. No one but yourself is keeping you down in the basement.
"I know you are but what am I?" God, you have so little of value to say that that's really the best you can do, huh? If you actually like the manga, the quit shitting up the comment section for everyone else, you entitled twat. Your desparate need for attention isn't worth anyone's time.
 
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When that ignorance (and it's not like Ivar's ignorance is the sole reason the way he is) is part of what leads a person to heavily romanticize war (and look for excuses to engage in it rather than avoid it), subvert the rules of his settlement leader, have to be physically restrained from attacking a pregnant women (simply because said pregnant woman mocked him and ticked him off), and act belligerent towards a small woman like Niskawaji'j for simply looking at their boats, yeah I am going to be less sympathetic towards them than to a person like Miskwekepu'j who decided to resort to extremes out of fear for the future well-being of his tribe.
So do you think Ivar could have been corrected? Both ignorance and misguidance are something that can be "cured" after all.
Do you think Ivar is symbolic of Thorfinn's failure? While the character is rather heavy handed, he does represent a side of humanity that crave conflict.
Also I may be misremembering but Ivar does admit that he doesn't want war, though I don't remember if it was before or after he cut the shaman's hand.

As far has we have seen, Miskwekepu'j does not have the personality of a bully, desperate and cunning sure, but not a bully as far as the story has shown. Also I doubt, if Miskwekepu'j had been taken-down and disabled by Thorfinn (in a hypoethical scenarion where Ivar and his sword didn't exist), that his tribe would have allowed him to continue attempting to attack the Vinland settlers and create a casus belli. Miskwekepu'j continuing and succeeding in creating a casus belli was not inevitable, while Ivar ensured that Miskwekepu'j was successful. Ivar is responsible for more than simple acceleration of the process.
Maybe, maybe not, we'll never truly know.

Not really, as not only does a crossbow have a higher level of skill development required to use it effectively, a crossbow is a not a tool/weapon created solely for infliciting violence on other human beings like a sword is (Hild's crossbow was is primarily for hunting), which is why something like a sword holds narrative and real-life symoblic meaning.
I'll have to disagree here, a crossbow is easier to use than a bow and while it can be used for hunting (which is ultimately a form of killing/harming not directed toward humans and it is VERY easy to use to tools towards humans for similar results), I'd argue that it is more powerful than needed. Remember, a crossbow can pierce plate armor, which is something a sword cannot do, and it offer you the relative safety from being afar while you still need to get close and expose yourself with a sword.
Hunters use rifle to hunt nowadays, it didn't stop guns from being the great equalizer against tools that were solely made for war like the sword.

Thorfinn is currently being chased because the attempts at diplomacy and negotiation ended up breaking down between Thorfinn and the allied tribes (and the allied tribes with each other primairly because the chieftan Mu'in desired Ivar's sword), and Thorfinn and co. had to flee to avoid being captured by Mu'in and his tribe (and potentially being killed). The ones in pursuit of Thorfinn haven't even expressed any specific motivation like the raider Ga'aoqi has.
But even after reaching an agreement (the Nords will leave Vinland), the shaman is worried about the warriors going back empty ended, they don't want something specific, they just don't want to go back with nothing to show for it.
There's also the fact that the Nords have mastered both ironworking and farming, the latter which greatly impressed the Lnu and struck fear into the shaman.
Their ability to farm is a direct consequence of their usage of iron tools, which would be seen as very precious to a civilization that doesn't use iron.

Ga'aoqi's primary motivation for attacking the village has been stated to be his desire to get Ivar's sword, trying to argue that a character would choose to do the exact same thing without his primary stated motivation existing (the same thing that is causing the chieftan Mu'uin to not agree with Miskwekepu'j the shaman) isn't a strong argument, regardless of his personality.
Even without the sword, the Nords would very probably still have iron knife and axe, which would be way better than the knife and axe the Lnu are currently using.
We'll see in the following chapters how the raider leader develop but I very much don't think that he's going to go back peacefully after completing his objective (getting the sword and trying it in battle). I will gladly admit that I was wrong if he actually does however.
 
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"I know you are but what am I?" God, you have so little of value to say that that's really the best you can do, huh? If you actually like the manga, the quit shitting up the comment section for everyone else, you entitled twat. Your desparate need for attention isn't worth anyone's time.
Coming from you mate, you're out here sucking off the manga by defending every criticism or hate comment this manga gets every month. "N-noooo I disagree with you!!" But I didn't ask. If you love it then good on you but I don't give a shit.

"look at me guys!!! I defend this manga every month look at me!!" Yet you have the gall to say I'm desperate for attention? The lack of self awareness is worrying.
 
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So do you think Ivar could have been corrected? Both ignorance and misguidance are something that can be "cured" after all.
Do you think Ivar is symbolic of Thorfinn's failure? While the character is rather heavy handed, he does represent a side of humanity that crave conflict.
Sure, I think it's possible that Ivar could have been corrected (doesn't mean it is/was likely), though I don't think that makes Ivar symbolic of Thorfinn's own personal failures (Ivar is still responsible for his own actions). If he's symbolic of anything, one could argue he is symbolic of the weakness of humanity and patriarchy (which his brother Styrk has essentially admited as much to in previous chapters).

Also I may be misremembering but Ivar does admit that he doesn't want war, though I don't remember if it was before or after he cut the shaman's hand.
Ivar has repeatedly stated that he likes war throughout the manga, even in chapter 207 (which takes place after he cut off Miskwekepu'j's hand) which is where he states he doesn't "want to be the cause of war" (after he realizes Hild is targeting his life), he still prefaced it with "I love war. Not love, really, I admire it."

Maybe, maybe not, we'll never truly know.
Sure, we can never truly know, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss and analyze what hypothetical scenarios are more likely than others. And based on what we've seen of the Gitpi Lnu tribe, it is far more likely if Miskwekepu'j had been taken down and neutralized without being grievously injured, that his fellow Gitpi would not have freely allowed him more chances to attempt to provoke a casus belli from the Vinland Settlers.

I'll have to disagree here, a crossbow is easier to use than a bow and while it can be used for hunting (which is ultimately a form of killing/harming not directed toward humans and it is VERY easy to use to tools towards humans for similar results), I'd argue that it is more powerful than needed. Remember, a crossbow can pierce plate armor, which is something a sword cannot do, and it offer you the relative safety from being afar while you still need to get close and expose yourself with a sword.
Hunters use rifle to hunt nowadays, it didn't stop guns from being the great equalizer against tools that were solely made for war like the sword.
I agree a crossbow is easier to use/learn to wield with minimum competency than a bow, but I don't think it is easier to use/learn to wield with minimum competency than a sword. So Hild's crossbow having a higher barrier of skill entry combined with it not specifically being designed for harming other people, makes its symbolic power significantly different than a sword.

And yeah guns ended up becoming even easier to use/be deadly than blades, which is part of my point. Just like how swords are a specific type of blade designed specifically for harming other people (while blades like knives and other bladed-tools exist for other purposes than harming humans) there have been and are guns specifically designed for killing/hurting other people (e.g. automatic and semi-automatic guns) and guns specifically designed for stuff like hunting and other purposes that don't include harming other people. And just like swords compared to other bladed tools, firearms specifically designed for harming other people hold much different symbolic and societal power and meaning (along with how people react to them) compared to firearms designed not specifically for harming other people.

But even after reaching an agreement (the Nords will leave Vinland), the shaman is worried about the warriors going back empty ended, they don't want something specific, they just don't want to go back with nothing to show for it.
There's also the fact that the Nords have mastered both ironworking and farming, the latter which greatly impressed the Lnu and struck fear into the shaman.
Their ability to farm is a direct consequence of their usage of iron tools, which would be seen as very precious to a civilization that doesn't use iron.
Uh, you're severely misremembering what Miskwekepu'j the shaman has said and though in the previous chapters. Even before Miskwekepu'j agreed to Thorfinn's proposal (and stated that attacking the Vinland settlers should only be a last resort), Miskwekepu'j specifically did not want the allied Lnu tribes to loot the Vinland settler while/after driving them out, in fact Miskwekepu'j specifically stated that all of the Vinland settlers belongings (not even just their iron tools, even the farms and houses) should be destroyed and disposed of.
The one who was interested and concerned about looting was the chieftan Mu'in and his Lnu tribe, and chief Mu'in is a guy who is especially personally interested in obtaining Ivar's sword.
This further illustrates that while it isn't fair and/or accurate to designate Ivar and his sword as the primary cause for the specific consequences occuring right now, Ivar and his sword are/were still a signifcant and key factor in how things have gone to shit in the specific manner they have, and that significance should not be discounted and/or downplayed.

Even without the sword, the Nords would very probably still have iron knife and axe, which would be way better than the knife and axe the Lnu are currently using.
We'll see in the following chapters how the raider leader develop but I very much don't think that he's going to go back peacefully after completing his objective (getting the sword and trying it in battle). I will gladly admit that I was wrong if he actually does however.
My argument isn't about what Ga'aoqi and his raiders will do now that he has obtained Ivar's sword, it's about whether if Ga'aoqi and his men would have decided to go on the unauthorized raid in the first place if the stuff with Ivar and his sword hadn't occured/existed. And since Ga'aoqi has been depicted as an individual who was specifically and primarily interested in obtaining a sword, even expressing disinterest in the other loot and tools his men found and took, the argument that he would not have been motivated enough to go on an unauthorized raid in the first place is not a weak one.
 
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The "fight" was a bit ridiculous. An indian the first time he wield a sword is able to cut through an axe hilt and a forearm in a single strike against a trained oponent, Even if it was an Ulfberth sword that was absurd is not a fucking Power Sword from Warhammer 40k to cut with such ease
That guy is obviously highly skilled warrior. Much more than Ivar. He aint a moron that doesn't know you should swing with edge to cut. As for cutting both axe and arm.. well, its manga, deal with it.
As for Ivar being a trained opponent, he was also stabbed in his hand, and shot with multiple arrows. It wasn't really a fight, just a show of defiance.
 
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You morons blaming Ivar for bringing a sword conveniently forget Hild has a goddamn repeating crossbow which is a much more potent weapon.
Fact is, Thorfinn was just fucking stupid enough to believe he could waltz into another tribe's land and they wouldn't find some excuse to drive them out because "peace and love" bro.
Bring trained fighters, build fortifications, carry along steel weapons and chainmail armor. Peace through deterrence is much more reliable than hoping for the goodwill for a bunch of tribals for who raiding is a way of life.
 
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Sure, I think it's possible that Ivar could have been corrected (doesn't mean it is/was likely), though I don't think that makes Ivar symbolic of Thorfinn's own personal failures (Ivar is still responsible for his own actions). If he's symbolic of anything, one could argue he is symbolic of the weakness of humanity and patriarchy (which his brother Styrk has essentially admited as much to in previous chapters).
Fine, let's just agree to disagree.

Ivar has repeatedly stated that he likes war throughout the manga, even in chapter 207 (which takes place after he cut off Miskwekepu'j's hand) which is where he states he doesn't "want to be the cause of war" (after he realizes Hild is targeting his life), he still prefaced it with "I love war. Not love, really, I admire it."
I don't remember it and I'm too lazy to check so I'll trust you here.

Sure, we can never truly know, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss and analyze what hypothetical scenarios are more likely than others. And based on what we've seen of the Gitpi Lnu tribe, it is far more likely if Miskwekepu'j had been taken down and neutralized without being grievously injured, that his fellow Gitpi would not have freely allowed him more chances to attempt to provoke a casus belli from the Vinland Settlers.
I don't think the chief has that much influence over the shaman considering that he contacted another tribe/warriors in his back and the plague that happen later would still prove him "right" that the Nords are harbingers of doom.

I agree a crossbow is easier to use/learn to wield with minimum competency than a bow, but I don't think it is easier to use/learn to wield with minimum competency than a sword.
Historically, you only needed 1-2 months of training with a crossbow to be considered "battle-ready".
You needed years with a sword to reach that point.

So Hild's crossbow having a higher barrier of skill entry combined with it not specifically being designed for harming other people, makes its symbolic power significantly different than a sword.
Hild doesn't have any crossbow, she own a rapid-firing crossbow which is way overkill for the purpose of hunting, it's the equivalent of owning a semi-automatic rifle for hunting in modern terms.
Even assuming that a single shot has lower power than a proper crossbow (and we don't know that), it's offset by the fact that having 2 bolts in your body is going to hurt as much, if not more than just one bolt from a normal crossbow.
And it doesn't answer my question as to why Hild get a pass but not Ivar despite the former owning a much more dangerous weapon.

And yeah guns ended up becoming even easier to use/be deadly than blades, which is part of my point. Just like how swords are a specific type of blade designed specifically for harming other people (while blades like knives and other bladed-tools exist for other purposes than harming humans) there have been and are guns specifically designed for killing/hurting other people (e.g. automatic and semi-automatic guns) and guns specifically designed for stuff like hunting and other purposes that don't include harming other people. And just like swords compared to other bladed tools, firearms specifically designed for harming other people hold much different symbolic and societal power and meaning (along with how people react to them) compared to firearms designed not specifically for harming other people.
You're missing the point: you can kill with about anything, you don't need dedicated tools for that, they just make the job easier and ultimately, it's the people that kill, not the tool.

Uh, you're severely misremembering what Miskwekepu'j the shaman has said and though in the previous chapters. Even before Miskwekepu'j agreed to Thorfinn's proposal (and stated that attacking the Vinland settlers should only be a last resort), Miskwekepu'j specifically did not want the allied Lnu tribes to loot the Vinland settler while/after driving them out, in fact Miskwekepu'j specifically stated that all of the Vinland settlers belongings (not even just their iron tools, even the farms and houses) should be destroyed and disposed of.
Oh, yeah I kind of remember now, thanks.
The one who was interested and concerned about looting was the chieftan Mu'in and his Lnu tribe, and chief Mu'in is a guy who is especially personally interested in obtaining Ivar's sword.
True but ultimately, the sword is "only" the greatest prize amongst many other iron "artefacts" which is why I think the Nords would have been attacked sooner or later.
There's also the fact that farming would allow the Nords to have a better and faster demograpic growth than the Lnu, which would certainly scare some tribes.

This further illustrates that while it isn't fair and/or accurate to designate Ivar and his sword as the primary cause for the specific consequences occuring right now, Ivar and his sword are/were still a signifcant and key factor in how things have gone to shit in the specific manner they have, and that significance should not be discounted and/or downplayed.
I wouldn't be so sure, remove the sword but keep Ivar, do you think he would still have attacked the chief even without a sword? I think he would still have because he wants to be seen as a tough guy, he would just have used an axe or any other iron tools they have instead.

My argument isn't about what Ga'aoqi and his raiders will do now that he has obtained Ivar's sword, it's about whether if Ga'aoqi and his men would have decided to go on the unauthorized raid in the first place if the stuff with Ivar and his sword hadn't occured/existed. And since Ga'aoqi has been depicted as an individual who was specifically and primarily interested in obtaining a sword, even expressing disinterest in the other loot and tools his men found and took, the argument that he would not have been motivated enough to go on an unauthorized raid in the first place is not a weak one.
The raider leader current goal is the sword but that goal itself is only a way for him to become stronger.
Even without the sword, the Nords still have better version of every tools the Lnu have, there's no way he wouldn't be interessed in a knife that pierce better than any knife he has ever seen or an axe that cut better than any axe he ever owned.
 
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I don't think the chief has that much influence over the shaman considering that he contacted another tribe/warriors in his back and the plague that happen later would still prove him "right" that the Nords are harbingers of doom.
Again, you need to better remember the manga. The shaman Miskwekepu'j did not contact and organize the other Lnu tribes behind the back of Chief Gitpi. Miskwekepu'j gathering the other Lnu tribes occurred after Chief Gitpi had died from the plague (and on his deathbed Chief Gitpi requested that Miskwekepu'j take care of Gitpi's surviving family). The few remaining survivors of the Gitpi tribe turned to Miskwekepu'j for guidance after that.

And yes the plague (and/or any epidemic causing disease) would still be inevitable, but how Miskwekepu'j, the Gitpi survivors, and other tribes responded to the spread of disease could have likely been significantly different if Ivar hadn't cut off Miskwekepu'j hand and completely soured relations between the Vinland settlers and the Gitpi Lnu tribe.

Historically, you only needed 1-2 months of training with a crossbow to be considered "battle-ready".
You needed years with a sword to reach that point.
You arguably need years of training with a sword to become competently skilled, but that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about the much more immediate short-term, which is why I I said "minimum competency", meaning that any unskilled person can liably caused damage or kill someone just by having and swinging around a sword (which isn't the same as one being able to do it well, to be clear). While something like a crossbow, that requires a greater deal of learning in the immediate short-term just to be able to operate it. Most people cannot pick up a crossbow and pose an immediate danger in the same way someone who has just picked up a sword can pose an immediate danger.

Hild doesn't have any crossbow, she own a rapid-firing crossbow which is way overkill for the purpose of hunting, it's the equivalent of owning a semi-automatic rifle for hunting in modern terms.
Even assuming that a single shot has lower power than a proper crossbow (and we don't know that), it's offset by the fact that having 2 bolts in your body is going to hurt as much, if not more than just one bolt from a normal crossbow.
And it doesn't answer my question as to why Hild get a pass but not Ivar despite the former owning a much more dangerous weapon.
Hild's crossbow still isn't a tool solely created for harming other people, that's why she gets a "pass" (as did anyone who wanted to bring an axe, bow, spear, and/or knife all of those tools/weapons were okayed to be brought on the Vinland expedition). The fact that Hild's crossbow (or any other tool) has the greater capacity to be more effectively dangerous to people than a sword does is not point and/or why Thorfinn banned swords. The point had to do with how swords are a tool created for the primary (and basically sole) purpose of harming another person, the fact that a sword (similar to automatic and semi-automatic firerarms) has no other intentioned utility gives it a symbolic meaning and power that other tools don't have.

You're missing the point: you can kill with about anything, you don't need dedicated tools for that, they just make the job easier and ultimately, it's the people that kill, not the tool.
Of course one can kill with just about anything, even the manga itself acknolwedges and goes over that fact. You're the one missing the point that dedicated tools (whose only utility is harming other people) making it a lot easier is a big and meaningful deal (both narratively and in real life). As I stated before it's a huge part of why people react differenty to someone lugging around open-carrying an automartic or semi-automatic firearm, than someone who is just lugging around a hunting firerarm. The fact that a tool has nigh exclusive utility dedicated to harming another person and makes the job a lot easier is actually a big and important factor. It's part of why the Cold War arms race existed with nuclear weapons.

True but ultimately, the sword is "only" the greatest prize amongst many other iron "artefacts" which is why I think the Nords would have been attacked sooner or later.
There's also the fact that farming would allow the Nords to have a better and faster demograpic growth than the Lnu, which would certainly scare some tribes.
Nothing the narrative indicated that the Gitpi Lnu were scared about the idea of of farming or the Vinland settlers having greater demographic growth. In facrt a number of Gitpi Lnu like Plmk were interested in learning and adopting farming from the settlers.
The presence of iron tools (which the Gitpi Lnu were already begining to acquire some of through means like trade) only became motivating factors for attacking the Vinland settlers after everything else first went to shit. The mere existence of iron tools by themselves did not make an attack on the Vinland settlers a gauranteed inevitable thing (even Ivar's brother Styrk acknlowedged how the the vast majority of the Lnu were uninterested in war), the manga has literally depicted how all this other bad stuff had to happen first for the existence of iron tools to become a motivating factor for attacking the Vinland settlers.

I wouldn't be so sure, remove the sword but keep Ivar, do you think he would still have attacked the chief even without a sword? I think he would still have because he wants to be seen as a tough guy, he would just have used an axe or any other iron tools they have instead.
It is very possible that he may have, hence why I specified Ivar AND his sword, not just his sword.
The symbolic power and meaning of a sword is still relevant though as the symbolic power of a sword is part of the very reason why Ivar was so dedicated to smuggle his sword to Vinland in the first place and wasn't satisfied with just axes, spear, knives, bows, etc. and other tools.

The raider leader current goal is the sword but that goal itself is only a way for him to become stronger.
Even without the sword, the Nords still have better version of every tools the Lnu have, there's no way he wouldn't be interessed in a knife that pierce better than any knife he has ever seen or an axe that cut better than any axe he ever owned.
Ga'aoqi already owns a metal knife (and even then expresses no interest in getting more for himself, chapter 206 literally shows that). Which is just further evidence for how Ga'aoqi's primary motivation for risking and going on an unauthorized raid (and potentially exposing himself and his men to the risk of infection) was to obtain a sword. Which again is part of my argument, that without the presence of the sword, Ga'aoqi' would have been far less likely to decide to organized said unauthorized raid.
 
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Suspend your disbelief in...the efficacy of diplomacy over arms races?
Just going to point out that historic diplomacy has basically always been at spear or gunpoint. You normally don't "negotiate" with strangers unless you feel confident they may pose some danger to you. That's why shows of force are so important.
 
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Again, you need to better remember the manga. The shaman Miskwekepu'j did not contact and organize the other Lnu tribes behind the back of Chief Gitpi. Miskwekepu'j gathering the other Lnu tribes occurred after Chief Gitpi had died from the plague (and on his deathbed Chief Gitpi requested that Miskwekepu'j take care of Gitpi's surviving family). The few remaining survivors of the Gitpi tribe turned to Miskwekepu'j for guidance after that.
Alright, sorry about that one.

And yes the plague (and/or any epidemic causing disease) would still be inevitable, but how Miskwekepu'j, the Gitpi survivors, and other tribes responded to the spread of disease could have have likely been significantly different if Ivar hadn't cut off Miskwekepu'j hand and completely soured relations between the Vinland settlers and the Gitpi Lnu tribe.
I disagree and since there's no way for either of us to back up our position, let's just stop there.

You arguably need years of training with a sword to become competently skilled, but that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about the much more immediate short-term, which is why I I said "minimum competency", meaning that any unskilled person can liably caused damage or kill someone just by having and swinging around a sword (which isn't the same as one being able to do it well, to be clear). While something like a crossbow, that requires a greater deal of learning in the immediate short-term just to be able to operate it. Most people cannot pick up a crossbow and pose an immediate danger in the same way someone who has just picked up a sword can pose an immediate danger.
You're grasping at straw here, just because it takes a few minutes to be dangerous with a crossbow (they really are easy to understand) doesn't magically make them harmless.

Hild's crossbow still isn't a tool solely created for harming other people, that's why she gets a "pass" (as did anyone who wanted to bring an axe, bow, spear, and/or knife all of those tools/weapons were okayed to be brought on the Vinland expedition). The fact that Hild's crossbow (or any other tool) has the greater capacity to be more effectively dangerous to people than a sword does is not point and/or why Thorfinn banned swords. The point had to do with how swords are a tool created for the primary (and basically sole) purpose of harming another person, the fact that a sword (similar to automatic and semi-automatic firerarms) has no other intentioned utility gives it a symbolic meaning and power that other tools don't have.

Of course one can kill with just about anything, even the manga itself acknolwedges and goes over that fact. You're the one missing the point that dedicated tools (whose only utility is harming other people) making it a lot easier is a big and meaningful deal (both narratively and in real life). As I stated before it's a huge part of why people react differenty to someone lugging around open-carrying an automartic or semi-automatic firearm, than someone who is just lugging around a hunting firerarm. The fact that a tool has nigh exclusive utility dedicated to harming another person and makes the job a lot easier is actually a big and important factor. It's part of why the Cold War arms race existed with nuclear weapons.
So you're saying that the author is aiming for symbolism rather that realism, which would indeed makes sense and would actually explain a lot of things, even if I disagree/dislike the way things were done.
Actually, that's probably the very reason why many people are complaining about this arc because this symbolism reek of hypocrisy when you know that both the sword and the crossbow would be forbidden IRL.

Nothing the narrative indicated that the Gitpi Lnu were scared about the idea of of farming or the Vinland settlers having greater demographic growth. In facrt a number of Gitpi Lnu like Plmk were interested in learning and adopting farming from the settlers.
Oh, I wasn't talking about the Gitpi Lnu but rather the others, possibly less friendly, tribes that we haven't seen or heard.
The presence of iron tools (which the Gitpi Lnu were already begining to acquire some of through means like trade) only became motivating factors for attacking the Vinland settlers after everything else first went to shit. The mere existence of iron tools by themselves did not make an attack on the Vinland settlers a gauranteed inevitable thing (even Ivar's brother Styrk acknlowedged how the the vast majority of the Lnu were uninterested in war), the manga has literally depicted how all this other bad stuff had to happen first for the existence of iron tools to become a motivating factor for attacking the Vinland settlers.
So... The plague and the presence of warriors with nothing better to do?

It is very possible that he may have, hence why I specified Ivar AND his sword, not just his sword.
The symbolic power and meaning of a sword is still relevant though as the symbolic power of a sword is part of the very reason why Ivar was so dedicated to smuggle his sword to Vinland in the first place and wasn't satisfied with just axes, spear, knives, bows, etc. and other tools.
He didn't tried hard to smuggle the sword and could have easily being stopped with a simple search.
DId Hild already met Ivar at that point? It would be in her character to check the things he brought.
Ga'aoqi already owns a metal knife (and even then expresses no interest in getting more for himself, chapter 206 literally shows that).
Are you sure of that? The Lnu haven't mastered metalworking and are using stone weapons, it should be impossible for him to own a metal knife. And what about the iron axes?
Which is just further evidence for how Ga'aoqi's primary motivation for risking and going on an unauthorized raid (and potentially exposing himself and his men to the risk of infection) was to obtain a sword. Which again is part of my argument, that without the presence of the sword, Ga'aoqi' would have been far less likely to decide to organized said unauthorized raid.
I still disagree here, the sword is only a mean for him to become more powerful which is why I think the sword could have been swapped with an iron axe... which is basically what I've already said previously so let's agree to disagree here too since we're running circles.
 
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I disagree and since there's no way for either of us to back up our position, let's just stop there.
Sure, agree to disagree, but I've been actually citing textual evidence from the narrative, so I'd say my position is better supported than yours, though I will acknowledge this is not something that can ever be 100% for sure proven one way or another.

You're grasping at straw here, just because it takes a few minutes to be dangerous with a crossbow (they really are easy to understand) doesn't magically make them harmless.
I have never tried to claim that crossbows are harmless (and I would argue it would take far more than just a few minutes for someone to pose a threat with it, especially one has never seen a crossbow before). And as I stated later, this is tangential to the main point.

So you're saying that the author is aiming for symbolism rather that realism, which would indeed makes sense and would actually explain a lot of things, even if I disagree/dislike the way things were done.
Actually, that's probably the very reason why many people are complaining about this arc because this symbolism reek of hypocrisy when you know that both the sword and the crossbow would be forbidden IRL.
Something having symbolic power isn't exclusive to narrative and/or makes something less realistic. Things having symbolic power happens in real life too, like part of the reason the atom bombs were dropped on Japanese cities in WWII was for the USA to display the symbolic power of the bomb. And again, Thorfinn wasn't banning weapons based on their capacity to do harm, he banned them based on the social message(s) it sends to posses a tool whose sole/primary utility is dedicated to harming other people, it wasn't based on how well something could harm another person, and thus there isn't anything to be hypocritical about.

Oh, I wasn't talking about the Gitpi Lnu but rather the others, possibly less friendly, tribes that we haven't seen or heard.
Well that's not really relevant to the hypotheticals being discussed since the Gitpi Lnu was the only avenue through which the Vinland settlers interacted with the Lnu people, and what happened to the Gitpi Lnu is what caused things to snowball into their current mess.

So... The plague and the presence of warriors with nothing better to do?
Of course the plague was a major motivating factor (and is arguably the largest one), but as I stated before the existence of the plague (or any disease) by itself isn't what ensured that Thorfinn's attempts at diplomacy (to avoid having the Vinland settlement attacked) would end in failure, Ivar and his sword souring the relations with the Gitpi Lnu (which ended all pre-existing trading) is what made Ivar's sword desired by many and caused iron tools to turn into things that could only be obtained by stealing/pillaging (since they could no longer be traded for).

He didn't tried hard to smuggle the sword and could have easily being stopped with a simple search.
DId Hild already met Ivar at that point? It would be in her character to check the things he brought.
Just because it was easy for Ivar to smuggled his sword doesn't mean he wasn't determined to smuggle it. And chapter 175 already depicted how Ivar was able to avoid having his sword detected, Gudrid unfortunately did a weak and rushed search check and trusted that Ivar wasn't deceiving them. Also this isn't really pertinent to original the point being discussed.

Are you sure of that? The Lnu haven't mastered metalworking and are using stone weapons, it should be impossible for him to own a metal knife. And what about the iron axes?
It's literally stated in the manga that he already has one. That doesn't mean he or the Lnu crafted one, it's probably meant to indicate that the Gitpi Lnu had traded some of the tools they obtained from the Vinland settlers through trade with other Lnu tribes on Epekwitk/Prince Edward Island.

I still disagree here, the sword is only a mean for him to become more powerful which is why I think the sword could have been swapped with an iron axe... which is basically what I've already said previously so let's agree to disagree here too since we're running circles.
Ga'aoqi's primary motivation for going on the raid in the first place can't be just swapped for any another weapon because the reason why Ivar's sword is desired is because of the show of power Ivar displayed with it by cutting off the shaman's hand.
 

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