Guild no Uketsukejou Desu ga, Zangyou wa Iya Nanode Boss wo Solo Toubatsu Shiyou to Omoimasu - Ch. 21 - Warm Body Temperature

[monkey123]

Tsundere with a hammer!

 

[kiero13]

Flirting already when the boss music isn't dead yet?

 

[Beregorn]

This may be an unpopular opinion judging by the way the ratings have taken a nosedive in this last chapter, but I quite like Jade and am glad he survived (However dubiously it was done). Plus, if he died here Alina would just get double the trauma she's already had, possibly shutting herself off from the rest of the world due to it. I.E "I have power now, but I still can't save the people I am fond of, what use am I?". This is just my opinion why killing Jade wouldn't be the optimal choice, forced romance or not, plz do not guillotine-chan me lmao.

Oh no, if only there was an example of exactly like that, done right, more than 60 years ago in one of the most famous comic of the world... Have you ever heard of the phrase "from great powers comes great responsibilities"?

 

[AnonMan88]

For those of you that don't want it to be romance, just drop it now instead of commenting on every chapter.

This is an adaptation of a LN. That has a romance tag. It's coming.

 

[BadmanBlues]

For those of you that don't want it to be romance, just drop it now instead of commenting on every chapter.

This is an adaptation of a LN. That has a romance tag. It's coming.

There being romance is fine. I read loads of romance. The problem is cheap fakeouts that destroy any sense of tension and stymie character growth. Moreover, Jade is obnoxious as a character and never respected her boundaries.

I'll give it a chance for a few more chapters, but I wouldn't drop because of the romance, I'd drop because of the execution. The premise sounded like a fun, silly slice of life story. It's becoming something more heavy, which is cool, but it's not grappling with that weight. Those two tones, light hearted and heavy, are directly in conflict, and the author has to commit to what he's writing if either is to be done well. You totally can move between them, but whatever you're writing at the moment, you gotta commit to it. Everyone who should have known better said Jade was dead. There was no implication we should distrust them, no foreshadowing he was still alive. The author ratcheted up the stakes and tension and created an opportunity for painful yet powerful character growth - and then rugpulled us.

I didn't expect the world from the story, but if you're gonna take it in a heavier direction - like the human costs of adventuring - then actually go there. Don't hit me with a cheap fakeout, commit to it.

 

[AnotherDuck]

Oh no, if only there was an example of exactly like that, done right, more than 60 years ago in one of the most famous comic of the world... Have you ever heard of the phrase "from great powers comes great responsibilities"?

So what?

 

[Arenesos]

Oh no, if only there was an example of exactly like that, done right, more than 60 years ago in one of the most famous comic of the world... Have you ever heard of the phrase "from great powers comes great responsibilities?"

If you looked through every story ever written, you would find that there are no completely original ideas left in writing anymore, if it is any type of plot, it was either the first of its kind a long time ago or a copy. It's not like everyone has read every issue of the Amazing Spiderman, I definitely wouldn't know which exact comic out of the thousands written where this exact plot point has been in. At this point, I'm just here for the ride, and instead of complaining you should go out and buy an issue of Berserk or something.

 

[Arenesos]

There’s been plenty of cold and destroyed bodies returning to life, magic and friendship solves all problems!

AHEM Fairy Tail.....

 

[VladDracul2]

Have you ever heard of the phrase "from great powers comes great responsibilities"?

You're giving the ultimate reason as to why Jade should keep pestering Alina to become an adventurer.

Also, if you want an Uncle Ben, the dead adventurer from the flashback should suffice, no need to kill the only person who cares for Alina just for being Alina (while also because she's the slayer), cuz everybody else can only see that hammer and dgaf about the wellbeing of the wielder.

 

[BadmanBlues]

You're giving the ultimate reason as to why Jade should keep pestering Alina to become an adventurer.

Sure - and maybe Jade should've actually plead that case instead of simply insisting that she join his party, which is all he ever did. It was never about why she should join him, or why taking up the mantle of adventurer was right. It's the fact that his reasoning and actions were entirely self-centered which makes him annoying (at least to me) and certainly not a desirable romantic partner. Sure, you could argue that Alina has a moral obligation to do the right thing, and that's why Jade was right to hound her around and continually insist she join his party. But Jade never made that case, which is why he's not an analogue for uncle Ben - he never made any appeal to virtue or personal responsibility.

Also, if you want an Uncle Ben, the dead adventurer from the flashback should suffice, no need to kill the only person who cares for Alina just for being Alina (while also because she's the slayer), cuz everybody else can only see that hammer and dgaf about the wellbeing of the wielder.

She was powerless to do anything back then. The message falls flat. It would've actually meant something if Jade died, because Alina walked away when Silver Sword needed her help. He would've died because she didn't want to inconvenience herself. She abdicated her responsibility as a strong person, realized her mistake too late, and somebody else paid the price for it. That's a powerful and compelling narrative. Doing a cheap fake out like the author did diminishes that message by alleviating the consequences of her personal failure, and it also diminishes the tension.

I get it. Not every manga has to be Berserk. But like I said in another post: if you're gonna go there, commit to it. I don't think it's unreasonable to be annoyed with this sort of thing. Frankly it wouldn't be half as annoying if Jade was still on his feet and fighting when Alina rolled along. The author just faked us out to increase the tension then rolled it back because he didn't want to deal with the emotional consequences. It's just tiresome.

 

[Beregorn]

If you looked through every story ever written, you would find that there are no completely original ideas left in writing anymore, if it is any type of plot, it was either the first of its kind a long time ago or a copy. It's not like everyone has read every issue of the Amazing Spiderman, I definitely wouldn't know which exact comic out of the thousands written where this exact plot point has been in. At this point, I'm just here for the ride, and instead of complaining you should go out and buy an issue of Berserk or something.

That would be his very first one. Or any one of the other hundreds of times his origin story has been re-enacted.
My point is, even after the author wrote themself into a corner just to score a couple of drama points, he didn't NEED to pull out of their ass some miraculous power never mentioned before in order to save Jade. He could have stayed dead and still results in a good story, and there is plenty of world-renowned examples to take inspiration from. Or his resurrection could have become the goal of a long arching quest where Alina become a full-time adventurer.

My point is that it didn't NEED to be this bad, even after last chapter.

 

[Arenesos]

That would be his very first one. Or any one of the other hundreds of time his origin story has been re-enacted.
My point is that, even after the author wrote themself into a corner just to score a couple of drama points, he didn't HAD TO pull out of their ass some miraculous power never mentioned before in order to save Jade. He could have stayed dead and still be a good story, and there is plenty of world renowned example to take inspiration from. Or his resurrection could have become the goal of a long arching quest where Alina become a full-time adventurer.

My point is that it didn't NEED to be this bad, even after last chapter

Well, to each their own. I like this story, as it's a neat story with a female protag who's op as heck- there ain't many of those around, especially in the non-otome style stories. Sure the author could have worked a little harder trying to come up with the next One Piece or Naruto, but honestly it's fine the way things are in my opinion. Also the manga is always a bit different in execution than the light novel, so some of your misgivings could be satiated from reading the LN.

 

[roxanneayy]

About the fake out. I had an idea but the relic demon couldn't sense it or what?

 

[MerlinD]

bruv was sleeping
bruv was shaking
bruv got a indirect kiss

 

[AnotherDuck]

But Jade never made that case, which is why he's not an analogue for uncle Ben - he never made any appeal to virtue or personal responsibility.

She abdicated her responsibility as a strong person, realized her mistake too late, and somebody else paid the price for it. That's a powerful and compelling narrative. Doing a cheap fake out like the author did diminishes that message by alleviating the consequences of her personal failure, and it also diminishes the tension.

But like I said in another post: if you're gonna go there, commit to it. I don't think it's unreasonable to be annoyed with this sort of thing.

It's not an analogue to Uncle Ben because there's a direct correlation in Alina's case but not in Spidey's case. Uncle Ben didn't die because Spidey let him die. He died because of an unforeseen accident due to Spidey not taking care of some unrelated criminal. If that happened later in the story and not as part of his origin story, it would've been one of those coincidences that cheapens the story.

Jade dying here would be something Alina knew about, and deliberately walked away from it. Her choice would've been, "I'm going to let this person I know die." That was never the choice Spidey made. If he knew that criminal would attack Ben, you can bet your ass Spidey would take care of it.

It would never have been the way you claimed it to be. That imaginary narrative would've been just as imaginary if Jade had died.

Sure, it's not unreasonable to be annoyed by things you don't like. But the author never went there.

Frankly it wouldn't be half as annoying if Jade was still on his feet and fighting when Alina rolled along. The author just faked us out to increase the tension then rolled it back because he didn't want to deal with the emotional consequences.

He only appeared dead to have Alina realise her feelings. If he was still fighting it would've been a worse story. The author never faked us out; it was way too obvious for that. The author faked Alina out.

My point is, even after the author wrote themself into a corner just to score a couple of drama points, he didn't NEED to pull out of their ass some miraculous power never mentioned before in order to save Jade. He could have stayed dead and still results in a good story, and there is plenty of world-renowned examples to take inspiration from.

You're acting as if the author can't think more than a chapter or two ahead. You're also acting as if Jade actually died. He never died, and it was obvious all along. I said as much before this happened.

Sure the author could have worked a little harder trying to come up with the next One Piece or Naruto,

If the author tried that, I'd be long gone. They're popular, not good. Actually, I'm not going to say anything about One Piece, since I never watched it, and never will.

 

[Beregorn]

You're acting as if the author can't think more than a chapter or two ahead.

They clearly don't, and even if they did they are not very good at doing it.

He never died, and it was obvious all along. I said as much before this happened.

That's not what happened: the author said that, swore to God, cross on the heart, trust me bro, he was 100% truly dead. What happened is that you never believed them in the first place, and that is a sure sign of bad writing

 

[AnotherDuck]

They clearly don't, and even if they did they are not very good at doing it.

Considering you're claiming things that didn't happen, clearly your opinion has a false basis and is thus irrelevant.

That's not what happened: the author said that, swore to God, cross on the heart, trust me bro, he was 100% truly dead. What happened is that you never believed them in the first place, and that is a sure sign of bad writing

No. It's a sign that I'm capable of understanding the story. And I never read the author saying that. I read the characters presenting a false situation.

 

[BadmanBlues]

He only appeared dead to have Alina realise her feelings. If he was still fighting it would've been a worse story. The author never faked us out; it was way too obvious for that. The author faked Alina out.

The guy who eats souls should know when a meal is on the table - it's hard to imagine a more reliable source for determining when somebody's dead. Alina looked at Jade's body and said it was still warm - she investigated it, and concluded he was dead. We have two witnesses saying he was dead. Obviously, they were unreliable, but the first one definitely shouldn't be unreliable.

The only reason we would have assumed that Jade was still alive is because we're genre savvy, and in stories like this, where the MC is handed a god power from the start, the MC is never seriously challenged. They never make mistakes they seriously regret, nobody close to them ever dies, and they only fight people who are unambiguously evil.

I wanted to hope that Alina would actually make a mistake. I wanted to hope that the author was seriously about to subvert my expectations and actually do what was telegraphed in the story. I was wrong. Fundamentally that's why I'm salty about this. I feel cheated out of genuine emotional depth and a serious dilemma.

I also don't think she has any feelings for him yet. Her not wanting a person die when she could stop it doesn't mean she's in love with him, though it's obviously building in that direction.

Jade dying here would be something Alina knew about, and deliberately walked away from it. Her choice would've been, "I'm going to let this person I know die." That was never the choice Spidey made. If he knew that criminal would attack Ben, you can bet your ass Spidey would take care of it.

I'll concede your point about uncle Ben. It's not 1:1.

That being said, my point is that she could have realized her mistake too late. All the narrative tension in that scene is predicated on that possibility. It's a fact that she didn't go with Silver Sword because she wanted to wash her hands of the whole thing, and she wanted to believe they could handle it alone. Yes, she had some reservations about letting Silver Sword handle it alone, but she chose to ignore those reservations.

By the time the stone started glowing, Jade was already wounded. It's totally reasonable to assume that he wouldn't last long against a guy with a divine ability, because it's been repeatedly stated that those without a divine ability stand zero chance against those who have one, regardless of how strong those weaker people are. They're just weaker. Considerably weaker. That's another rule that got handwaved for Jade's survival.

So this fight, which probably should've lasted seconds, optimistically lasted minutes and even more optimistically, she got there in time.

Yes, if Spidey knew uncle Ben was going to die, he would have done something. But what if he knew too late? What if he couldn't get there in time? What if Alina had made the mistake of not trusting her heart, not being there when people needed her from the start, and what if she had to live with and overcome that? What if she simply had to watch that stone glow and realized that she could have been there to make a difference?

But it's a pointless thought exercise.

As an aside, I strongly disagree that the narrative would have been "just as imaginary," because I just wrote it, and if the author had actually written it, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The ONLY tweak I've proposed to the narrative currently in the story is that she gets there late, and Jade is actually dead. It's still completely internally consistent with everything that comes before. The only difference is that this genuinely commits to what the story telegraphed.

 

[AnotherDuck]

Obviously, they were unreliable, but the first one definitely shouldn't be unreliable.

It's less that he wouldn't know, and more that I wouldn't trust what he says.

The only reason we would have assumed that Jade was still alive is because we're genre savvy, and in stories like this, where the MC is handed a god power from the start, the MC is never seriously challenged. They never make mistakes they seriously regret, nobody close to them ever dies, and they only fight people who are unambiguously evil.

Depends on how you define "genre savvy", since you'd have to get pretty wide to get that statement to fit. But you can't really expect people reading a manga to know nothing about the genre, the tone of the specific manga, general story tropes and story progression.

I could turn it around and say that the only reason we would have assumed he was dead would be if we read everything literally with no thoughts as to why things happen and what they mean to the characters.

I wanted to hope that Alina would actually make a mistake. I wanted to hope that the author was seriously about to subvert my expectations and actually do what was telegraphed in the story.

I also don't think she has any feelings for him yet. Her not wanting a person die when she could stop it doesn't mean she's in love with him, though it's obviously building in that direction.

That being said, my point is that she could have realized her mistake too late. All the narrative tension in that scene is predicated on that possibility.

I don't think that's what was telegraphed. It also doesn't fit the story. Sure, it was a possibility, but I don't think it was a good option for the story to take. I always read it that at some point, she would come and save the day. Reluctantly. Because that's what the story is fundamentally about.

In short, I think it would just double down on the trauma she already has, since while it's somewhat different, it's similar enough, and I don't think the differences would add much to the story that the previous trauma hasn't already. At the same time, it would also make the story darker, which certainly could happen, but I don't think it would suit the story as a whole.

On the other hand, him surviving would better help her realise what she actually feels about it. Not just him specifically, but her avoidance and motivations for why she's acting like she does. It's overall the more dynamic option.

I wouldn't say she has no feelings for her, but I don't think they're not particularly noticeable, even assuming standard tsundere dense behaviour.

So this fight, which probably should've lasted seconds, optimistically lasted minutes and even more optimistically, she got there in time.

This is where I agree with you the most, but also where the genre savviness kicks in the most. Battles in mangas like these don't last a realistic amount of time. In this case, they want to show that despite being outmatched by that monster, Jade is very resilient. That's the one thing that drags fights out the most. So while it's not realistic, it's expected for the genre. And it wasn't even relatively long compared to that.

But it's a pointless thought exercise.

But without those, we wouldn't be discussing anything in the first place.

 

[BadmanBlues]

It's less that he wouldn't know, and more that I wouldn't trust what he says.

I mean sure, but that relies totally on meta-knowledge about the nature of the story and the type of genre this belongs to. The contrary evidence isn't presented in the story itself.

Depends on how you define "genre savvy", since you'd have to get pretty wide to get that statement to fit. But you can't really expect people reading a manga to know nothing about the genre, the tone of the specific manga, general story tropes and story progression.

I could turn it around and say that the only reason we would have assumed he was dead would be if we read everything literally with no thoughts as to why things happen and what they mean to the characters.

I think a major part of our difference of opinion comes down to differences in philosophies of writing. By that I mean, how self contained a story ought to be, how much it should rely on meta-knowledge of similar narratives, and more generally how it should be written. One specific writing tool that I think we value very differently is Chekhov's gun. Basically, I feel that the details must contribute to the narrative. If there is a gun mounted above the fireplace, and this is made note of in the story, then it must contribute to the story in some way. Maybe it's fired, or maybe it's a clue about the nature or background about another character, but there's no such thing as useless or false information. Information can be misleading, but it can't just be wrong with no in-story reason to suspect it's wrong.

A good story, IMO, gives me the clues to anticipate what will happen. These clues might point to things I wouldn't expect, but it will never contradict those clues.

Let's take a completely different manga. Call of the Night. That one is filled with all sorts of subtle foreshadowing which most people will only notice on a re-read. But for attentive readers, that's hugely rewarding. Rather than relying on tropes, it tries to tell its own story, and it gives us the clues to figure out where it's headed. It's incredibly satisfying because it regularly defied my expectations.

In short, I think it would just double down on the trauma she already has, since while it's somewhat different, it's similar enough, and I don't think the differences would add much to the story that the previous trauma hasn't already.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, because I feel like having agency is an enormous difference. It's one thing to be a kid and be helpless. It's another thing to have great power, not trust your judgement because you're afraid of losing your comfort, and have somebody else suffer for it. Agency is a huge deal.

At the same time, it would also make the story darker, which certainly could happen, but I don't think it would suit the story as a whole.

It would be a departure from preexisting tone, but I really wanted to hope that the author was just faking us out, that it would be a bait-and-switch deconstruction of popular tropes. I kinda hate using the word "deconstruction," but I'd just like to see a manga where actions have meaningful consequences and there's meaningful, palpable struggle. But through that struggle, there's still light, life still keeps moving, there's hope. It feels like so much manga these days is either total escapist wish fulfillment, or dark brooding hopeless nihilism. I've been starving for something that actually wrestles with darkness and finds real hope - something like Saihate no Paladin, or Clevatess. Serious stories that truly embrace struggle and search for hope feel so rare, it's frustrating.

At the end of the day, people need to read the fiction which speaks to them. Having hope has always been the most compelling struggle to me, because I've always found having hope to be the hardest thing to do. I don't want to run from the darkness and retreat into some brighter fantasy. I also don't want to surrender to the darkness, and believe that there's nothing to live for besides survival itself. I want to wrestle with the darkness. I want to win. I want there to be meaning in that struggle. And finding fiction which speaks to that desire is way too hard. Which is why I get peeved when I feel like I'm being teased. It gives me storytelling blueballs.

On the other hand, him surviving would better help her realise what she actually feels about it. Not just him specifically, but her avoidance and motivations for why she's acting like she does. It's overall the more dynamic option.

Couldn't she also realize that in her pain, but fight through it with the support of those around her? Can't beating the darkness be uplifting, even if it's bittersweet?

This is where I agree with you the most, but also where the genre savviness kicks in the most. Battles in mangas like these don't last a realistic amount of time. In this case, they want to show that despite being outmatched by that monster, Jade is very resilient. That's the one thing that drags fights out the most. So while it's not realistic, it's expected for the genre. And it wasn't even relatively long compared to that.

You're not wrong, this is totally expected for the genre. But I just saw the opportunity for what I felt was a more appealing story, and I hoped the author would seize it. What bothered me is that it felt like the author was laying signals that he might take an exit ramp into a different genre - from the unhealthy way Jade approached Alina, to Alina's own reticence to be helpful even when others needed her most, I hoped he was lining us up for a gut punch.

But without those, we wouldn't be discussing anything in the first place.

True, but this discussion isn't going to change much is it? Maybe it will help us understand eachothers' perspective, but that won't increase the number of appealing stories in this world, will it? I've been burnt out on my own writing and just haven't been feeling the motivation to keep going. Don't you feel like you're wasting your time talking to me?